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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 03, 2003, 02:30pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by cmathews
Warrenkicker, if A is not in a scrimmage kick formation, you can't very well do that. I had a coach talk to me this weekend, he thought that crack back blocks, even legal ones should not be allowed. His reasoning was that they got a couple players hurt last year on legal crack backs, so thus a safety concern. You can't very well tell the wide out not to crack back on the defense, because it is legal, just as it is legal to hit the center if A is not in a scrimmage kick formation.
But if a guy is intent on drive another guy's head between his knees then we should be a little worried about what is happening. If the defender was trying to get past the snapper then maybe he should be going around instead of through a guy who isn't even trying to block someone.

I'm just saying that U can remind the defense to be careful of the snapper with his head down. I'm not avocating calling it as a foul but just to try to keep that situation from causing an injury and then having one coach down your neck for not flagging it.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 03, 2003, 02:40pm
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has anyone ever seen a snapper injured this way?? I have never seen or heard of it, I know I am in Wyoming where there are only a few people let alone football teams, but I have never seen or heard of it? I couldn't believe when they instituted the rule. The first time I saw it called it amazed me. I would venture to guess that more players are injured annually by blocks below the waist (legal blocks) than all of the centers ever injured before the rule was instituted. I don't have any figures to back this up, just a guess I have. Does anyone have any statistics??
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 03, 2003, 04:07pm
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It always amazes me how often I read of or hear of an experienced official advocating making up our own rules. If a rule needs to be changed for safety purposes, we have avenues to propose such changes. We are the enforcers of the rules, not the writers of the rules.

What happens when you tell one team not to hit the center in such a situation, and a player informs his coach that you did so... then he lines up in similar formation and the other team hits your center - when you don't flag it (as you shouldn't), coach goes ballistic and has every right to. (Granted - this gives coaches more credit than they deserve, but I've met one or two that actually read the rulebook on occasion).
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 03, 2003, 05:53pm
JMN JMN is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by mbcrowder
It always amazes me how often I read of or hear of an experienced official advocating making up our own rules.
Can you say, "Derock"?

cc: JN (lol)
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 03, 2003, 06:45pm
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Re: I disagree with you, David.

Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by davidfv1
My call is roughing every time! [anyway, no coach is going to know the rule about 7 yards anyway...hehehe]
What other rules do yoiu not enforce or make up because the coach doesn't know the rule? I'm not trying to be facetious but that's exactly what you're saying.

If the rule says 7 yards and the holder is only 5 yards away, what right do we have to change the rule?
Don't you do it every game? You let a holding call go because it did not have an effect on the play. You should call those.. it is in the rules!...

You as an officials have every right to use common sense in enforcing the rules. If a player gains an advantage by breaking them, throw the flag. If a player has no advantage gained during a penalty, let it go. If the safety of the player is at stake, you better do what you can do to make sure the player is not hurt. 7 or 5 yards, my thought is with the player and doing what I think it right. I would rather be critized for what I think is a safety issue, then have a kid being carried off the field.

So, what I am saying that in an obvious kick formation/situation (as described), protect the players and you and the players will be better off.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 03, 2003, 06:54pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Warrenkicker
Bending is precisly what the coaches work to do. The original rule stated that if you had a player 7 or more yards off of the LOS that was a scrimmage kick formation and thus the snapper could not be contacted directly. Some coach read that and put a flanker off of the line by 7 yards with the quarterback under center. This formation met the definition of a scrimmage kick formation. This was obviously not the intent of the new rule but was a result of how it was written. Since then we have more requirements like no one in position to take a direct snap and the player 7 yards off to be in a position to take it.

The rule does say that no one can be in posistion to receive a 'hand-to-hand' snap from center so this is ruled out anyway
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 03, 2003, 06:55pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by cmathews
BTW ramaris, where in wyoming are you...you are the only wyomingite I have seen in here...glad to not be alone anymore LOL
I am currently living in Cheyenne, however I white hat a crew out of Casper.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Sep 03, 2003, 07:06pm
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Great, this has invoked some really great discussion, which is what I was hoping for.

Our crew never really did come up with a final verdict.
Just lots of discussion, which is always good anyway.

Honestly, I still don't know how I would have handled it had roughing occured. I guess I still have until Friday to figure it all out.

Incidently, I beleive that I am going to discuss this "discrepancy" with our comissioner who is on the rules comittee. Clarifaction would not be to difficult.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 04, 2003, 10:10am
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Mike,
Now I remember you ...hey when you talk to Ron ask him about the double foul/PSK thing and what he wants to see in Wyoming...
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 04, 2003, 07:26pm
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Hey all...not coaching this year...going back to law school...time to make some money i guess....

anyway, here is a coach's thought on the matter.

1. Most good coaches definitely know about the seven yards rule....so that is just a foolish assumption.

2. Shotguns in my league were sometimes seven yards on purpose and discussed in pregame as def being the same so the snapper would get protection even if one hand and head up...seven yards is seven yards...

3. The rule clearly says, must have at least one player in a position to catch the snap....the rule does not say that the player in position must be the one who catches it....so in a fg formation a coach could most definitely argue that the standing kicker is in a position to catch the snap farther than seven yards deep, therefore granting protection to the snapper...interesting point I guess...especially if he were a straight on kicker there would be absolutely no counter argument in this case...a soccer style kicker that is offset a ton may not get leeway here but a normal soccer style kicker can definitely catch a snap that sails high...seen it done tons of times...

4. here is a thought...how about a shotgun snap with the intended quarterback at five yards over the gaurd and the runningback straight behind center at eight yards...the quarterback intercepts the snap...I say, clearly by rule, the snapper would get protection...just like he gets protection on a fake punt when the snap goes to the up back...no difference here....

As far as roughing the snapper goes I would def say that the kicker is in good position beyond seven yards everytime...no matter where the holder is ....

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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 04, 2003, 11:51pm
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Re: Re: I disagree with you, David.

Quote:
Originally posted by davidfv1


You as an officials have every right to use common sense in enforcing the rules. If a player gains an advantage by breaking them, throw the flag. If a player has no advantage gained during a penalty, let it go. If the safety of the player is at stake, you better do what you can do to make sure the player is not hurt. 7 or 5 yards, my thought is with the player and doing what I think it right. I would rather be critized for what I think is a safety issue, then have a kid being carried off the field.
No rule has been broken.

Quote:
So, what I am saying that in an obvious kick formation/situation (as described), protect the players and you and the players will be better off.
So, where does it stop? 4 yards? 3 yards? 2 yards?

BTW, wheher you throw the flag or not has absolutely no bearing on whether the kid gets hurt or not.

Making up your own rules will keep you in the soup. Keep the flag in your pocket.
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