Duplicate Number Question

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Eastshire

What makes a punter a punter?

Punting the ball makes him a punter, and affords him protections other players don't get.

For that matter what makes a quarterback a quarterback?

Receiving the snap; throwing the ball

I don't see a definition for either in the rulesbook.

There's no question that the NCAA rule is problematical in that it prohibits something based on position ... and then does not define the position. This is part of why I truly think this is the kind of rule that would be punished after the fact by the NCAA, and not during a game.

If this isn't what's covered by the rule, can you give an example of what is covered by the rule and how it differs from this situation?

I believe the rule is intended to keep teams from creating statistical nightmares for the press or press box, and to prevent (possibly) having an ejection served by someone other than the player ejected. And not really for US to enforce. This, of course, is only my opinion.

But I don't believe the rulesmakers ever expected the officials to have to deal with this on the field.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I believe the rule is intended to keep teams from creating statistical nightmares for the press or press box, and to prevent (possibly) having an ejection served by someone other than the player ejected. And not really for US to enforce. This, of course, is only my opinion.

But I don't believe the rulesmakers ever expected the officials to have to deal with this on the field.

Rogers talked about this rule at a clinic I attended and IIRC the primary purpose of the rule was to not use multiple players with the same number in a deceptive manner. They intentionally left the wording somewhat vague so it didn't paint us into a corner for enforcement. It's mostly meant for key skill positions. They aren't worried about a LG at number 65 and later bringing in another #65 to play LT (not at the same time).

I'm thinking it's OK to have #18 as a QB and #18 as a punter, but if you bring in the QB version as the punter and then run a fake, you may have a problem. Statistics may have been a secondary consideration (and I know a statistician who likes the rule for that reason), but it wasn't primary.

If you feel a team is using different players with the same number in a deceptive manner, then invoke this rule. Otherwise don't worry about it.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Rogers talked about this rule at a clinic I attended and IIRC the primary purpose of the rule was to not use multiple players with the same number in a deceptive manner. They intentionally left the wording somewhat vague so it didn't paint us into a corner for enforcement. It's mostly meant for key skill positions. They aren't worried about a LG at number 65 and later bringing in another #65 to play LT (not at the same time).

Were you at Honig's clinic this spring? I was there also... if we both end up there next year we should get together for a beer or two.

I'm thinking it's OK to have #18 as a QB and #18 as a punter, but if you bring in the QB version as the punter and then run a fake, you may have a problem.

But a punter isn't a punter until he actually punts the ball. Prior to that, he's just a runner. Likewise, the quarterback is just a runner until he actually throws a pass.

If you feel a team is using different players with the same number in a deceptive manner, then invoke this rule. Otherwise don't worry about it.

Agreed.

[parepat]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Were you at Honig's clinic this spring? I was there also... if we both end up there next year we should get together for a beer or two.


But a punter isn't a punter until he actually punts the ball. Prior to that, he's just a runner. Likewise, the quarterback is just a runner until he actually throws a pass.


Agreed.

So.... in this situation having the QB and Punter wear the same number and then have said QB line up as a punter and run the play seems like a deceptive move to me. I have a foul. Do you?

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by parepat

So.... in this situation having the QB and Punter wear the same number and then have said QB line up as a punter and run the play seems like a deceptive move to me. I have a foul. Do you?

Unless I can be ABSOLUTELY sure that the QB #16 and Punter #16 are not the same person, no, I do not have a foul.

In high school I played against a team whose quarterback was also their punter. Why can't a player, if appropriately skilled, do both?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Unless I can be ABSOLUTELY sure that the QB #16 and Punter #16 are not the same person, no, I do not have a foul.

In high school I played against a team whose quarterback was also their punter. Why can't a player, if appropriately skilled, do both?

Danny White did this in the pros.

I'm really surprised this has gotten as much play as it has. I don't even see most players' faces, much less memorize them and compare. I can see possibly catching this if it happened to be a captain - we see their faces early, and interact with them throughout the game. But even in an NCAA game, I don't see this getting noticed by the on-field officials.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Unless I can be ABSOLUTELY sure that the QB #16 and Punter #16 are not the same person, no, I do not have a foul.

In high school I played against a team whose quarterback was also their punter. Why can't a player, if appropriately skilled, do both?

The point is, if your regular punter is 18, and your backup qb is 18, you can easily deceive the defense by sending in your backup qb to line up as your regular punter.
The defense is going to assume it's a punt and defend accordingly.

OTOH, at the college level, there shouldn't be any surprises after about week 2.

[parepat]

Originally Posted by Adam

The point is, if your regular punter is 18, and your backup qb is 18, you can easily deceive the defense by sending in your backup qb to line up as your regular punter.
The defense is going to assume it's a punt and defend accordingly.

OTOH, at the college level, there shouldn't be any surprises after about week 2.

Which is pretty much what happened in this situation.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

Were you at Honig's clinic this spring? I was there also... if we both end up there next year we should get together for a beer or two.

But a punter isn't a punter until he actually punts the ball. Prior to that, he's just a runner. Likewise, the quarterback is just a runner until he actually throws a pass.

Agreed.

Not this year but I've been a few times. Great clinic!

I agree. I'm talking more in general terms which is how Rogers described it. You would notice this if the QB left after 4th down and a different player comes in with the same number and lines up as a punter.