Helmet comes off during a tackle, due to prior foul?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by asdf

I have absolutely no problem "making up a rule" in order to save a high school student athlete from potential serious injury.

That really sucks. So sorry to hear that about you.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that in this situation you'd be hard pressed to find any state athletic administrator that thinks otherwise.

So ... you're of the opinion that you, a lone official, knows better than the entire NFHS regarding safety? You think that the scenario we're talking about has never ever either happened or even occurred to anyone as a possibility?

If tptb wanted you to stop play if this happened, they'd tell you so.

If I was a coach in your scenario, I'd be demanding you enforce the inadvertent whistle rule (assuming that might benefit me in some way).

The only thing worse than an inadvertent whistle is an advertant improper whistle.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

That really sucks. So sorry to hear that about you.

So ... you're of the opinion that you, a lone official, knows better than the entire NFHS regarding safety? You think that the scenario we're talking about has never ever either happened or even occurred to anyone as a possibility?

If tptb wanted you to stop play if this happened, they'd tell you so.

If I was a coach in your scenario, I'd be demanding you enforce the inadvertent whistle rule (assuming that might benefit me in some way).

The only thing worse than an inadvertent whistle is an advertant improper whistle.

Personally, I think this is a bit harsh, but I'm only a sophomore fb official.
If I thought the kid was disoriented and only standing because he couldn't figure it out, I'd kill the play. If I thought he was trying to advance, I'd let it play out.

I'm not sure I'd judge someone harshly for killing it, though. Do you really think the NFHS rule writers took the possibility of a sideways/backwards helmet into account when writing the rule? If so, ok. I'm just not as confident.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Adam

Personally, I think this is a bit harsh, but I'm only a sophomore fb official.
If I thought the kid was disoriented and only standing because he couldn't figure it out, I'd kill the play. If I thought he was trying to advance, I'd let it play out.

I'm not sure I'd judge someone harshly for killing it, though. Do you really think the NFHS rule writers took the possibility of a sideways/backwards helmet into account when writing the rule? If so, ok. I'm just not as confident.

You know that they never come up with every possible scenario to cover a situation. But that does not mean we change rules just to satisfy some personal fear. Just like in basketball we do not automatically kill the play because a player goes down and is hurt. We wait until either they are in immediate danger or the opposing team has completed an opportunity to complete the play. Well this player in this video could have stayed down or went down. And in football we do not kill plays because a player in in danger or even hurt. Not sure why this is any different.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Adam

Do you really think the NFHS rule writers took the possibility of a sideways/backwards helmet into account when writing the rule? If so, ok. I'm just not as confident.

I think that I've seen it before (Ok, sideways, not backward). I think that if I've seen it before it can't be completely unheard of.

But more importantly, asdf seems to be wanting to add his own determination as to when to kill a play out of a concern for safety. The rules makers do this for us. Anything more is not proper or appropriate. I could name 20 scenarios where someone is not "safe", depending on one persons viewpoint of what "safe" is... if we were to all make our own determinations regarding what is safe - and kill plays accordingly, we'd have a mess on our hands.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I think that I've seen it before (Ok, sideways, not backward). I think that if I've seen it before it can't be completely unheard of.

But more importantly, asdf seems to be wanting to add his own determination as to when to kill a play out of a concern for safety. The rules makers do this for us. Anything more is not proper or appropriate. I could name 20 scenarios where someone is not "safe", depending on one persons viewpoint of what "safe" is... if we were to all make our own determinations regarding what is safe - and kill plays accordingly, we'd have a mess on our hands.

This play happened to my crew about 10 years ago.....

A32 catches a froward pass at B's 17 yards line. He takes three steps and is sandwiched between two defenders with a simultaneous hit. The hit not only forces a fumble, but it causes a compound fracture to A32's right arm in the process and he is bleeding profusely. B56 recovers the fumble and advances uninhibited towards A's goal line.

Seeing A32's compound fracture, the crew kills the play so that he can be attended to immediately.


There is nothing in the book that tells us to kill the play, yet we killed it anyway. B's head coach, irate at first, understood fully when he saw A32's injury, not that it made a difference to us.

MD.... you gonna swallow the whistle on this because the rules don't tell you to blow it?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by asdf

Seeing A32's compound fracture, the crew kills the play so that she can be attended to immediately.


There is nothing in the book that tells us to kill the play, yet we killed it anyway. B's head coach, irate at first, understood fully when he saw A32's injury, not that it made a difference to us.

MD.... you gonna swallow the whistle on this because the rules don't tell you to blow it?

Most plays take no more than 7 seconds and you stopped a play that probably would not take much more then this.

And if my crew did that and gave that example, we would be in a lot of trouble here.

And I have players with many fractures, concussions and many ambulances on the field and never felt like I could or would stop play just because someone had a serious injury. As a matter of fact the play is usually over before anyone realizes a player is that hurt. And if I did notice, I would keep officiating. Just because your crew did something once upon a time ago (and it is telling it was 10 years ago) does not make it right. Glad I am not on your crew.

Peace

[asdf]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And if my crew did that and gave that example, we would be in a lot of trouble here.

Baloney

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Glad I am not on your crew.

The feeling is mutual.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by asdf

Baloney

Applying your own rules when there is rules support for specific action gets you in trouble here. And messing up a rule and certainly calling an IW is not seen in a great light either. And if I gave your justification, I would be in bigger trouble. Certainly would be the case at the NCAA level as the coaches would send such tape to the supervisor and then I would have to answer for such a thing. I have had to answer for less then this and things not on tape. I would have to answer for this.

Originally Posted by asdf

The feeling is mutual.

No, it is not.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by asdf

MD.... you gonna swallow the whistle on this because the rules don't tell you to blow it?

Yes. Or moreso because killing this play early does nothing good, and lots bad.

At this point, I know you're not going to listen to anyone telling you differently, so I'm not going to keep telling you how wrong you are here... I am curious, however - what is it that you think you accomplished by blowing the whistle 4-5 seconds earlier than when the play would have ended on its own?

[asdf]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

At this point, I know you're not going to listen to anyone telling you differently,

....and finally, we agree on something....

Well over 30 years ago I worked my first athletic contest at age 13. I was schooled from day one that safety at the High School level down is of utmost importance. I don't care if it's you or any other "big veteran" on this board, you aren't changing my mind.

I've employed this mindset before and nothing "bad" happened after I killed the play. (how the heck can getting immediate medical attention to a student athlete who has two bones sticking out of his arm and bleeding profusely be bad?) I didn't get into "trouble" and I haven't missed a beat on or off the field.

In the play in the video, I say the player is in immediate danger and we as officials have a duty to try to protect him from harm since it's not inherent with how the game is played. You and my other detractor on this subject feel otherwise. I cannot fathom how one could look at a player with his helmet on backwards, vision blocked, still running, and judge this is normal to the game of football......... But that's just me.

This is my final word on the matter. You all can ridicule me all you want or change the scenarios to suit your position as you are want to do.

I can sit here knowing that I've never wavered on my point of view.

Have at it. Have fun......

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by asdf

I've employed this mindset before and nothing "bad" happened after I killed the play.

An IW is bad. Pretty much always. Yes, sometimes you get bailed out by a penalty. But the "good" in your scenario is zero. The "Bad" is the IW.

In the play in the video, I say the player is in immediate danger and we as officials have a duty to try to protect him from harm since it's not inherent with how the game is played. You and my other detractor on this subject feel otherwise.

What Jeff and I are trying to tell you is that there are literally thousands of conceivable instances where a player is in "immediate danger" - but we don't kill the play in 99.9% of them (and on the ones where we do, it's because a rule tells us to. "That player is in danger" is not the standard you should be using when deciding whether to kill a live play.

I cannot fathom how one could look at a player with his helmet on backwards, vision blocked, still running, and judge this is normal to the game of football......... But that's just me.

Again, a mistaken standard. "Not normal to the game" is no reason to kill a play either.

This is my final word on the matter. You all can ridicule me all you want or change the scenarios to suit your position as you are want to do.

I don't believe I've been ridiculing you, personally. I'm trying to get you to see reason and back down from the idea that you should kill a play any time a player might not be safe. This is football. Everytime 225 lbs Goliath lines up against 95 lb David - David is not safe. But we don't kill the play when we see it.

I can sit here knowing that I've never wavered on my point of view.

If that's what's important to you - unwavering in the face of logic - more power to you, and enjoy your JV and 2A Varsity games. Perhaps a different approach would help you. You don't know Jeff or I from Joe Internet Referee yet. That's fine. But surely you belong to an association of some sort that allows you to work high school games. PLEASE, I implore you --- don't go ask your buddies, or even your crew chief or mentor ... go ask your rules guy. Or bring this up at the next clinic. Believe them.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

That really sucks. So sorry to hear that about you.

So ... you're of the opinion that you, a lone official, knows better than the entire NFHS regarding safety? You think that the scenario we're talking about has never ever either happened or even occurred to anyone as a possibility?

Trust me.... I'm not alone

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

If tptb wanted you to stop play if this happened, they'd tell you so.

There's a reason why the ball is dead when a runner loses his helmet. If you can't see the correlation between this and the play in question, then I am "sorry to hear that about you."

And you know every scenario cannot be covered in a rule book, case book, official's manual...etc... so that excuse doesn't wash.

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

If I was a coach in your scenario, I'd be demanding you enforce the inadvertent whistle rule (assuming that might benefit me in some way).

As stated prior, the inadvertent whistle hurts nobody as the penalty will certainly be accepted by A.

It prevents potential serious injury not inherent to the normal activity associated with football.