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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 06, 2012, 10:13am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref1973 View Post
Ok so you guys saying R's ball, how do you reconcile the fundamental statement:

When R is first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the NZ, a new series is awarded to the team in possession at the end of the down.
Does ineligible receiver downfield come into play here? More than likely the center at the least will release to cover kick.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 06, 2012, 10:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike51 View Post
Does ineligible receiver downfield come into play here? More than likely the center at the least will release to cover kick.
More than likely.

Once again, the NCAA rule is superior and prevents this craziness.
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 06, 2012, 10:31am
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Guys, these case plays get real convoluted once we start deviating from the original post. Its easy to lose track of which play we are discussing.

The simple rule of thumb an old WH taught me is that once R touches a scrimmage kick beyond the NZ, its going to be a "first down for somebody at the end of the down". That somebody is normally the team in possession at the end of the down.

Remember, K can advance a muffed scrimmage kick behind the LOS, even if touched beyond and it rebounds back. They may then run, or pass or kick again behind the LOS. The LOD provision will not apply due to the new series being awarded.

And of course there will be the inevitable USC on R's head coach after you've gone and tried to explain all this to him.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 06, 2012, 12:40pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike51 View Post
Does ineligible receiver downfield come into play here? More than likely the center at the least will release to cover kick.
No. Under NFHS all K players may go downfield before, during, or after the kick. No restrictions. 7-5-6
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 06, 2012, 12:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike51
Does ineligible receiver downfield come into play here? More than likely the center at the least will release to cover kick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maven View Post
No. Under NFHS all K players may go downfield before, during, or after the kick. No restrictions. 7-5-6
I believe Mike51 is questioning does Inelligibles Downfield apply on the pass thrown by K/A in the OP. I would say that all passing rules are in affect.
OP by Ref1973 ... NFHS: K punts from the 50, R21 muffs at the R 45. Kick rolls back to the K40, where K21 picks up the ball, then throws a forward pass to the R20 where it falls incomplete. What ya got?
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 06, 2012, 01:07pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ump33 View Post
I believe Mike51 is questioning does Inelligibles Downfield apply on the pass thrown by K/A in the OP. I would say that all passing rules are in affect.
Of course you're right, how silly of me.

Yes, since this is a legal forward pass, all passing restrictions (eligibility, interference) are in effect.

Note that, even if K avoids IED, they are likely to run afoul of the PI restrictions, which apply to the passing team from the snap until the pass is touched or is incomplete.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 07, 2012, 10:48pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maven View Post
Yes, since this is a legal forward pass, all passing restrictions (eligibility, interference) are in effect.

Note that, even if K avoids IED, they are likely to run afoul of the PI restrictions, which apply to the passing team from the snap until the pass is touched or is incomplete.
I don't think so. Usually they'd be trying to avoid contact beyond the neutral zone, not to cause it. They'd only start throwing blocks if they were aware that the ball had come back into possession of a K player. The ineligibles downfield would be a much likelier foul.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Sun Nov 11, 2012, 02:28am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legend View Post
Not according to the book. This is told in 2 different ways. #1 would be NFHS Rule 2-27 (PG. 33). A muff is the touching of a loose ball by a player in an unsuccessful attempt to secure possession. Or 2-34; Art. 3 (Pg. 36) A change of possession occurs when the opponent gains player possession during the down.

So according to these definations, the fact that R touches the ball or "muffs" it does not constitute a change of possession.
I got a lot of muffs in high school. I was a gunner before the word became popular usage..............Yes, I'm talking about punts. Got three in one game.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2012, 05:18pm
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ok, I'll dive in here:

a) The play is dead at K40 when recovered (and a possible delay of game for throwing the ball after the completion of the play depending on when the whistle was sounded). A muff beyond the expanded neutral zone is not ignored. It is a muff and a recovered muff of a kick or punt cannot be advanced by K.

b) same as above
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2012, 05:42pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkdow View Post
ok, I'll dive in here:

a) The play is dead at K40 when recovered (and a possible delay of game for throwing the ball after the completion of the play depending on when the whistle was sounded). A muff beyond the expanded neutral zone is not ignored. It is a muff and a recovered muff of a kick or punt cannot be advanced by K.

b) same as above
Read the other answers. This is wrong.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Nov 13, 2012, 06:50pm
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5.1.3 SITUATION C:

Fourth and 10 on K's 45-yard line. K1 punts the ball beyond the neutral zone. R1 muffs the ball back behind the neutral zone where K1 recovers and:

(a) falls on the ball at K's 40-yard line; or
(b) throws a forward pass to K3 which is complete at the 50-yard line and R1 interferes with K3; or
(c) K1 punts the ball and R1 fair catches at his 30-yard line.

RULING: Since R1 touched the kick beyond the neutral zone, it will be first down for the team in possession in (a), (b) and (c). In (a), it is a first down for K at K's 40-yard line. In (b), the pass is legal as there had been no change of team possession. If K accepts the penalty for interference, it will be K's ball at R's 40-yard line. In (c), the second punt is legal as there had been no change of team possession. The ball belongs to R first and 10 on its own 30-yard line. (5-1-2f; 6-2-1; 7-5-1)
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 14, 2012, 09:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkdow View Post
5.1.3 SITUATION C:

Fourth and 10 on K's 45-yard line. K1 punts the ball beyond the neutral zone. R1 muffs the ball back behind the neutral zone where K1 recovers and:

(a) falls on the ball at K's 40-yard line; or
(b) throws a forward pass to K3 which is complete at the 50-yard line and R1 interferes with K3; or
(c) K1 punts the ball and R1 fair catches at his 30-yard line.

RULING: Since R1 touched the kick beyond the neutral zone, it will be first down for the team in possession in (a), (b) and (c). In (a), it is a first down for K at K's 40-yard line. In (b), the pass is legal as there had been no change of team possession. If K accepts the penalty for interference, it will be K's ball at R's 40-yard line. In (c), the second punt is legal as there had been no change of team possession. The ball belongs to R first and 10 on its own 30-yard line. (5-1-2f; 6-2-1; 7-5-1)
Exactly. (b) and (c) in this case play show you that, obviously, the ball is not dead - as you said in your previous post.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 14, 2012, 01:11pm
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On the original question. K's ball on the 40.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 14, 2012, 01:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OKREF View Post
On the original question. K's ball on the 40.
Disagree. An incomplete legal forward pass is returned to the previous spot.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Wed Nov 14, 2012, 01:24pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
Disagree. An incomplete legal forward pass is returned to the previous spot.
When R muffs the punt and K recovers the muff, the play is dead and it is K's ball at the spot where they recovered the muff.
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