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Old Fri Nov 02, 2012, 02:21pm
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NFHS: K punts from the 50, R21 muffs at the R 45. Kick rolls back to the K40, where K21 picks up the ball, then throws a forward pass to the R20 where it falls incomplete. What ya got?
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Old Fri Nov 02, 2012, 02:26pm
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I'll just go ahead and say I have K 1/10 at the 50.
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Old Fri Nov 02, 2012, 02:28pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ref1973 View Post
I'll just go ahead and say I have K 1/10 at the 50.
If it was 4th down, I would have R 1/10 at the 50.
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Old Fri Nov 02, 2012, 02:39pm
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NFHS:
Kick ends behind the line of scrimmage, which means that anyone can pick up the ball and advance.

K's forward pass is legal, as it is the only forward pass thrown during the down, and it's thrown behind the LOS and prior to change of team possession.

Result of the play: incomplete forward pass.

If it's 4th down, it'll be 1st and 10 for R at the previous spot. If it's not 4th down, K puts the ball in play at the 50, down and distance as appropriate.
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Old Fri Nov 02, 2012, 02:43pm
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Ok so you guys saying R's ball, how do you reconcile the fundamental statement:

When R is first to touch a scrimmage kick beyond the NZ, a new series is awarded to the team in possession at the end of the down.
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Old Fri Nov 02, 2012, 02:49pm
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1973 is right - K 1/10 at the 50.


NFHS 5-1-3: "When a scrimmage down ends with the ball in the field of play or out of bounds between the goal lines, a new series is awarded to: ...(f.) The team in possession at the end of the down, if R is the first to touch a scrimmage kick while it is beyond the expanded neutral zone, unless the penalty is accepted for a non post-scrimmage kick foul which occurred before the kick ended or unless 6-2-7 [scrimmage kick out of bounds not in possession, or in joint possession] applies."

NFHS 7-5-1: "It is a legal forward pass, if during a scrimmage down and before team possession has changed, a player of A throws the ball with both feet of the passer in or behind the neutral zone when the ball is released. Only one forward pass may be thrown during a down."

So the forward pass is legal (meets all requirements of 7-5-1: during a scrimmage down, no change of possession, thrown by A behind the neutral zone, first forward pass of the down).

Since the kick is touched by R 5 yards beyond the line of scrimmage (thus beyond the expanded neutral zone), whoever recovers it will have a new series.
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Old Fri Nov 02, 2012, 05:06pm
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Change this slightly.

After K21 picks up the ball, he runs to the R45 where he throws an illegal forward pass that a) falls incomplete or b) is caught by K80 at the R25 where he is tackled.
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Old Fri Nov 02, 2012, 05:27pm
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I would say the ball would belong to K, 1st and 10 at their own 40 since a muff can only be recovered but not advanced. The ball would become dead once K recovered it.
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Old Fri Nov 02, 2012, 05:54pm
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Originally Posted by REFANDUMP View Post
I would say the ball would belong to K, 1st and 10 at their own 40 since a muff can only be recovered but not advanced. The ball would become dead once K recovered it.
Then that would be the case regardless of what K21 did, and nothing else matters.
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Old Fri Nov 02, 2012, 07:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
Change this slightly.

After K21 picks up the ball, he runs to the R45 where he throws an illegal forward pass that a) falls incomplete or b) is caught by K80 at the R25 where he is tackled.
So, to be clear, here's the new play:

NFHS: K punts from the 50, R21 muffs at the R 45. Kick rolls back to the K40, where K21 picks up the ball....runs to the R45 where he throws an illegal forward pass that a) falls incomplete or b) is caught by K80 at the R25 where he is tackled.



So the first half of the play is the same: K recovers a kick behind the NZ that R had touched beyond the NZ. So K will be awarded a new series at the end of the down.

The run is legal, but the forward pass beyond the NZ is not. IFP, enforced from the spot of the foul, 5 yards. K will still end up with 1/10 @ 50, clock on the snap.

The LOD provision of IFP lapses due to K being awarded a new series.
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Old Sat Nov 03, 2012, 08:29am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maven View Post
So, to be clear, here's the new play:

NFHS: K punts from the 50, R21 muffs at the R 45. Kick rolls back to the K40, where K21 picks up the ball....runs to the R45 where he throws an illegal forward pass that a) falls incomplete or b) is caught by K80 at the R25 where he is tackled.



So the first half of the play is the same: K recovers a kick behind the NZ that R had touched beyond the NZ. So K will be awarded a new series at the end of the down.

The run is legal, but the forward pass beyond the NZ is not. IFP, enforced from the spot of the foul, 5 yards. K will still end up with 1/10 @ 50, clock on the snap.

The LOD provision of IFP lapses due to K being awarded a new series.

In the O.P. it was stated that k muffed the punt. I thought that a muff didn't make it a change of possossion. Am I wrong here? Please advise.
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Old Sat Nov 03, 2012, 07:14pm
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Originally Posted by legend View Post
In the O.P. it was stated that k muffed the punt. I thought that a muff didn't make it a change of possossion. Am I wrong here? Please advise.
The only thing that would affect would be the clock status, and since it was an incomplete pass anyway, time is out until the ball is next put in play.
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Old Sat Nov 03, 2012, 08:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legend View Post
In the O.P. it was stated that k muffed the punt. I thought that a muff didn't make it a change of possossion. Am I wrong here? Please advise.
R muffed the kick. By rule if R touches the kick beyond the NZ, the team in possession at the end of the down is awarded a new series.
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Old Mon Nov 05, 2012, 06:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maven View Post
R muffed the kick. By rule if R touches the kick beyond the NZ, the team in possession at the end of the down is awarded a new series.

Not according to the book. This is told in 2 different ways. #1 would be NFHS Rule 2-27 (PG. 33). A muff is the touching of a loose ball by a player in an unsuccessful attempt to secure possession. Or 2-34; Art. 3 (Pg. 36) A change of possession occurs when the opponent gains player possession during the down.

So according to these definations, the fact that R touches the ball or "muffs" it does not constitute a change of possession.
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Old Mon Nov 05, 2012, 06:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legend View Post
Not according to the book. This is told in 2 different ways. #1 would be NFHS Rule 2-27 (PG. 33). A muff is the touching of a loose ball by a player in an unsuccessful attempt to secure possession. Or 2-34; Art. 3 (Pg. 36) A change of possession occurs when the opponent gains player possession during the down.

So according to these definations, the fact that R touches the ball or "muffs" it does not constitute a change of possession.
It has nothing to do with change of possession, so you're looking at the wrong rule. This is a rule specifically to do with scrimmage kicks. The proper rule is 5-1-3, quoted in post #6 above.
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