Clock Start Question

[Scuba_ref]

I am new to the White Hat postition and am currently cutting my teeth on Jr High and Sub Varsity games. I was having a conversation with another White Hat (varsity level) and he posed this question to me: K is punting and the kicker gets the ball away but is roughed in the process. Official on that game started the clock at the ready after marching off the penalty, was this correct?

My answer was no. Team K was awarded a new set of downs after a legal kick so start on the snap. The penalty was a minor clock stoppage and the kick play was a major clock stoppage - using the terminology from Reddings Guide - the kick clock stoppage supercedes the penalty clock stoppage and so start on the snap.

Am I wrong?

[Adam]

I'm not sure this is a new series. It's a first down, not a new set.

Unless I'm missing something.

[MD Longhorn]

There was no kick. The accepted penalty wiped that out. Proceed just as you would on any other 4th down play where a penalty resulted in a first down.

Clock on the ready.

[Welpe]

You are correct, Scuba, the clock will start on the snap:

NFHS 3-4-3

ART. 3 . . . The clock shall start with the snap or when any free kick is touched, other than first touching by K, if the clock was stopped because:

a. The ball goes out of bounds.

b. B or R is awarded a new series.

c. Either team is awarded a new series following a legal kick.

d. The ball becomes dead behind the goal line.

e. A legal or illegal forward pass is incomplete.

f. A request for a charged or TV/radio time-out is granted.

g. A period ends.

h. A team attempts to consume time illegally.

i. The penalty for a delay of game foul is accepted.

j. A fair catch is made.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by adam

unless i'm missing something.

2-26-5 & 5-1-1

[maven]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

There was no kick. The accepted penalty wiped that out. Proceed just as you would on any other 4th down play where a penalty resulted in a first down.

Clock on the ready.

Sure there was a kick, and a team was awarded a new series thereafter. Clock on the snap. 3-4-3c

After an incomplete pass we start the clock on the snap too, even if there's an accepted DPI penalty. 3-4-3e

Different section of 3-4-3, but same thinking.

[Scuba_ref]

Thank you for the replies. For those who think the kick was wiped out I found the following case play:

3.4.3 SITUATION G: A1 throws an incomplete pass on third down. During the play, A3 holds. B accepts the penalty. RULING: After enforcement, the clock shall start on the snap. (3-4-3e).

The incomplete pass caused the clock to stop and dictates how the clock will start after enforcing the penalty. This case is very similar to the question I asked and validates (in my mind) the reposnses for starting on the snap.

EDIT: Oops, should have read Maven's response just before this, well at least I added the case play.

[CT1]

The reason for starting on the snap rather than the RFP following a new series after a legal kick is to allow the teams to get their new personnel on the field.

If they don't have to change personnel, start on the RFP.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by CT1

The reason for starting on the snap rather than the RFP following a new series after a legal kick is to allow the teams to get their new personnel on the field.

If they don't have to change personnel, start on the RFP.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If either team has a new series following a legal kick play, we start on the snap. Period. The fact that there's a live ball penalty is irrelevant -- it doesn't wipe out the play.

[Adam]

Ok, this makes sense. Thanks.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

There was no kick. The accepted penalty wiped that out. Proceed just as you would on any other 4th down play where a penalty resulted in a first down.

Clock on the ready.

Nope. Not in NFHS or NCAA.

[CT1]

Originally Posted by Rich

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Me either. Maybe I had a flashback to the 1994(?) rationale for the FED rules change.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Rich

Nope. Not in NFHS or NCAA.

Argh... my bad. Worse --- I believe I blew this one on the field last year. And none of my crew that day (sub-V, so not a standard "crew") noticed or mentioned it.

[maven]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Argh... my bad. Worse --- I believe I blew this one on the field last year. And none of my crew that day (sub-V, so not a standard "crew") noticed or mentioned it.

Ah, well blame that crew then!

My understanding of NFHS clock rules became so much clearer when someone encouraged me to memorize the "major stoppers" in 3-4-3.

The provision about "legal kick" is tricky because it's a major stopper only when you have a legal kick AND a new series (to either team). If we have a punt, K holds before the kick, and R accepts the penalty, clock runs on the RFP.

Perhaps you were thinking along these lines?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Argh... my bad. Worse --- I believe I blew this one on the field last year. And none of my crew that day (sub-V, so not a standard "crew") noticed or mentioned it.

Don't beat yourself up too badly. I'd wager the number of SV officials that know the clock rules around here number in the dozens.

Part of the problem is that we don't have a real clear set of timing rules. It's always been "use the 2005 rules" which isn't exactly right and good luck if you don't have a 2005 book.