Kick, receive or defer revisited

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by maven

Completely, 100%, absolutely misses the point.

What, you think the problem has been that all of the people in the thread there framed the question differently from the way it's been framed here? There's no chance it's a framing problem, because it's a thorough discussion. Opp'ties were presented for clarif'n, and taken.

In fact, the thread drifted from the original question, which was, "What goes into your decision to receive the kickoff or defer when you win the coin toss?" By reply #30, the subject was broached of errors in declaring the choice -- Receive or defer By reply #47, that, and officials' handling of the choices, became the main topic -- Receive or defer .

Although some coaches were concerned only that they come out ahead or not behind in the bargain, more posts -- and longer, more detailed ones -- expressed the opinion that officials not be patronizing and allow the players to make their own right or wrong decisions. Eventually DumCoach himself waded in to say that a team might well prefer to kick off, and gave an example where he made that choice.

See for yourself.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Although some coaches were concerned only that they come out ahead or not behind in the bargain, more posts -- and longer, more detailed ones -- expressed the opinion that officials not be patronizing and allow the players to make their own right or wrong decisions. Eventually DumCoach himself waded in to say that a team might well prefer to kick off, and gave an example where he made that choice.

See for yourself.

I've seen the aftermath of what happens when a player chooses to kick instead of defer and the referee goes with it without further clarification. It was, in a word, ugly. I haven't seen an entire coaching staff that PO'd in a long time. Needless to say, they kicked off the second half from their own 25.

Despite what these few, rare, coaches desire, the majority do NOT want us to let their players make that mistake. If they want to kick, it will be made perfectly clear to us before hand. Obviously the responsibility falls on the coaches to ensure the right option is chosen however from a game management perspective, I will not let a captain elect to kick or defend a goal without it being perfectly clear that is what they want.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I've seen the aftermath of what happens when a player chooses to kick instead of defer and the referee goes with it without further clarification. It was, in a word, ugly. I haven't seen an entire coaching staff that PO'd in a long time. Needless to say, they kicked off the second half from their own 25.

Despite what these few, rare, coaches desire, the majority do NOT want us to let their players make that mistake. If they want to kick, it will be made perfectly clear to us before hand. Obviously the responsibility falls on the coaches to ensure the right option is chosen however from a game management perspective, I will not let a captain elect to kick or defend a goal without it being perfectly clear that is what they want.

I agree with that last paragraph totally. It has happen to me in a high school game and we had no problems. I told the coach, "He insisted and we went with his choice." Of course the coaches were mad, but guess what, they realized they needed to teach better. And again this is often prevented in our state because coaches are to be at the coin flip for a "Sportsmanship Meeting" and can stay for the actual coin flip. We can use the coaches as second ears to get the right choice. When this situation happened with me, it was before that procedural change.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

What, you think the problem has been that all of the people in the thread there framed the question differently from the way it's been framed here? There's no chance it's a framing problem, because it's a thorough discussion. Opp'ties were presented for clarif'n, and taken.

In fact, the thread drifted from the original question, which was, "What goes into your decision to receive the kickoff or defer when you win the coin toss?" By reply #30, the subject was broached of errors in declaring the choice -- Receive or defer By reply #47, that, and officials' handling of the choices, became the main topic -- Receive or defer .

Although some coaches were concerned only that they come out ahead or not behind in the bargain, more posts -- and longer, more detailed ones -- expressed the opinion that officials not be patronizing and allow the players to make their own right or wrong decisions. Eventually DumCoach himself waded in to say that a team might well prefer to kick off, and gave an example where he made that choice.

See for yourself.

I read the thread. The times when a coach will exercise an unusual option at the levels I work is incredibly rare. I'll admit that in youth football there are a lot more factors that go into the choice and teams may wish to start both halves on defense. I have never seen that in my decade-plus as a white hat, BTW. Of course, I may work about 1 youth game (on average) a season. I haven't worked any this year.

I know what the coaches want to do before the coin is even tossed - I cover that in the pregame meeting with the coach. Unless the player told me that the coach changed his mind, I'm going to make sure I make eye contact with the coach and give him a chance to fix the problem before I let the captain make the wrong choice.

[MD Longhorn]

Robert - how many times have you been the referee and had a kid choose kick?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Rich

I may work about 1 youth game (on average) a season. I haven't worked any this year.

There are some here who assume Federation rules in answering any question, because more games are played under that rule set than any other. I'd like to point out that probably the majority (not just plurality) of all games of American football played are of youth football.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

There are some here who assume Federation rules in answering any question, because more games are played under that rule set than any other. I'd like to point out that probably the majority (not just plurality) of all games of American football played are of youth football.

Just curious, but what's your point here?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Just curious, but what's your point here?

My point is that the previous poster treated youth football as exceptional, when, statistically, it should be considered the default, if there is one, by the same justif'n some people take Fed rules to be the default.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

My point is that the previous poster treated youth football as exceptional, when, statistically, it should be considered the default, if there is one, by the same justif'n some people take Fed rules to be the default.

Oh. OK. So ALL OF THE REST OF US are at the wrong forum. Only you are in the right place.

Perhaps you'd be better off finding (or starting) a forum about youth football. The rules for youth football are different all over the country. I (and likely many other officials here) have little or no interest in visiting a site to discuss rules and situations when the rules would not apply to our own situations - ever. It may be the majority of football... but we have no common frame of reference as officials when you're talking about youth football. The topic of ALMOST every post is based on NFL, NCAA, or FED rules - the "default" as you call it, should be one of those.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Perhaps you'd be better off finding (or starting) a forum about youth football.

I linked to a thread in one, guess you didn't notice.

The rules for youth football are different all over the country.

True, but irrelevant to this discussion, because we're already assuming the same choices to start the halves as in the current major codes. In this case it's not a rules difference at issue, just that a poster upthread wrote that the game tactics are often different from what you'd expect at higher levels.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

My point is that the previous poster treated youth football as exceptional, when, statistically, it should be considered the default, if there is one, by the same justif'n some people take Fed rules to be the default.

Statistically in what way? The average poster here is not an average youth official. We may have people who work youth games, but the "average" poster here, I would guess, is a HS official. Working NFHS or NCAA rules.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

There are some here who assume Federation rules in answering any question, because more games are played under that rule set than any other. I'd like to point out that probably the majority (not just plurality) of all games of American football played are of youth football.

That's all well and good but the majority of officials here are working Varsity or Subvarsity scholastic football. Knowing the forum audience is important.