Kick, receive or defer revisited

[maven]

Originally Posted by Adam

They say that now, yet every single one of them would be grateful if it was their captain who wins the toss and says he wants to kick.

Exactly. A common occurrence for anyone who has formulated poll questions: it's possible to manipulate answers by framing the question differently.

Q: "Do you want officials to interfere with your captain's selection at the coin toss?"

A: No!

Q: "Your captain just won the toss and elected to kick, so your opponent will get the ball to start both halves; would you like the officials to double check whether your captain really meant to defer?"

A: Yes!

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by maven

Exactly. A common occurrence for anyone who has formulated poll questions: it's possible to manipulate answers by framing the question differently.

But these are not poll questions. They're discussing the issue, same as here. It's not just 1-liners.

[maven]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

But these are not poll questions. They're discussing the issue, same as here. It's not just 1-liners.

Completely, 100%, absolutely misses the point.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by maven

Completely, 100%, absolutely misses the point.

Are you positive?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by maven

Completely, 100%, absolutely misses the point.

What, you think the problem has been that all of the people in the thread there framed the question differently from the way it's been framed here? There's no chance it's a framing problem, because it's a thorough discussion. Opp'ties were presented for clarif'n, and taken.

In fact, the thread drifted from the original question, which was, "What goes into your decision to receive the kickoff or defer when you win the coin toss?" By reply #30, the subject was broached of errors in declaring the choice -- Receive or defer By reply #47, that, and officials' handling of the choices, became the main topic -- Receive or defer .

Although some coaches were concerned only that they come out ahead or not behind in the bargain, more posts -- and longer, more detailed ones -- expressed the opinion that officials not be patronizing and allow the players to make their own right or wrong decisions. Eventually DumCoach himself waded in to say that a team might well prefer to kick off, and gave an example where he made that choice.

See for yourself.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Although some coaches were concerned only that they come out ahead or not behind in the bargain, more posts -- and longer, more detailed ones -- expressed the opinion that officials not be patronizing and allow the players to make their own right or wrong decisions. Eventually DumCoach himself waded in to say that a team might well prefer to kick off, and gave an example where he made that choice.

See for yourself.

I've seen the aftermath of what happens when a player chooses to kick instead of defer and the referee goes with it without further clarification. It was, in a word, ugly. I haven't seen an entire coaching staff that PO'd in a long time. Needless to say, they kicked off the second half from their own 25.

Despite what these few, rare, coaches desire, the majority do NOT want us to let their players make that mistake. If they want to kick, it will be made perfectly clear to us before hand. Obviously the responsibility falls on the coaches to ensure the right option is chosen however from a game management perspective, I will not let a captain elect to kick or defend a goal without it being perfectly clear that is what they want.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I've seen the aftermath of what happens when a player chooses to kick instead of defer and the referee goes with it without further clarification. It was, in a word, ugly. I haven't seen an entire coaching staff that PO'd in a long time. Needless to say, they kicked off the second half from their own 25.

Despite what these few, rare, coaches desire, the majority do NOT want us to let their players make that mistake. If they want to kick, it will be made perfectly clear to us before hand. Obviously the responsibility falls on the coaches to ensure the right option is chosen however from a game management perspective, I will not let a captain elect to kick or defend a goal without it being perfectly clear that is what they want.

I agree with that last paragraph totally. It has happen to me in a high school game and we had no problems. I told the coach, "He insisted and we went with his choice." Of course the coaches were mad, but guess what, they realized they needed to teach better. And again this is often prevented in our state because coaches are to be at the coin flip for a "Sportsmanship Meeting" and can stay for the actual coin flip. We can use the coaches as second ears to get the right choice. When this situation happened with me, it was before that procedural change.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

What, you think the problem has been that all of the people in the thread there framed the question differently from the way it's been framed here? There's no chance it's a framing problem, because it's a thorough discussion. Opp'ties were presented for clarif'n, and taken.

In fact, the thread drifted from the original question, which was, "What goes into your decision to receive the kickoff or defer when you win the coin toss?" By reply #30, the subject was broached of errors in declaring the choice -- Receive or defer By reply #47, that, and officials' handling of the choices, became the main topic -- Receive or defer .

Although some coaches were concerned only that they come out ahead or not behind in the bargain, more posts -- and longer, more detailed ones -- expressed the opinion that officials not be patronizing and allow the players to make their own right or wrong decisions. Eventually DumCoach himself waded in to say that a team might well prefer to kick off, and gave an example where he made that choice.

See for yourself.

I read the thread. The times when a coach will exercise an unusual option at the levels I work is incredibly rare. I'll admit that in youth football there are a lot more factors that go into the choice and teams may wish to start both halves on defense. I have never seen that in my decade-plus as a white hat, BTW. Of course, I may work about 1 youth game (on average) a season. I haven't worked any this year.

I know what the coaches want to do before the coin is even tossed - I cover that in the pregame meeting with the coach. Unless the player told me that the coach changed his mind, I'm going to make sure I make eye contact with the coach and give him a chance to fix the problem before I let the captain make the wrong choice.

[MD Longhorn]

Robert - how many times have you been the referee and had a kid choose kick?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Rich

I may work about 1 youth game (on average) a season. I haven't worked any this year.

There are some here who assume Federation rules in answering any question, because more games are played under that rule set than any other. I'd like to point out that probably the majority (not just plurality) of all games of American football played are of youth football.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

There are some here who assume Federation rules in answering any question, because more games are played under that rule set than any other. I'd like to point out that probably the majority (not just plurality) of all games of American football played are of youth football.

Just curious, but what's your point here?

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

There are some here who assume Federation rules in answering any question, because more games are played under that rule set than any other. I'd like to point out that probably the majority (not just plurality) of all games of American football played are of youth football.

That's all well and good but the majority of officials here are working Varsity or Subvarsity scholastic football. Knowing the forum audience is important.

[voiceoflg]

Here is an interesting wrinkle I saw Friday night on this topic. Game tied at 35 at the end of regulation. Instead of sending out captains, the head coaches went out for the OT coin toss. I have never seen that before.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by voiceoflg

Here is an interesting wrinkle I saw Friday night on this topic. Game tied at 35 at the end of regulation. Instead of sending out captains, the head coaches went out for the OT coin toss. I have never seen that before.

Why didn't they just arm wrestle for the win and do away with those pesky players entirely?

[bigjohn]

http://owvfoa.com/ohio%202011%20playoff%20bulletin.pdf

18. R & Toss: Catch the coin or flip the coin again.