The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Football

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Tue Oct 02, 2012, 09:00pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 158
NFL rules questions

If, on a field goal/extra point, while the holder is holding the tip of the ball (waiting for the place kicker to kick it), if he is touched by a defender, is the holder down by contact?

When a running back runs into the line of scrimmage near the hash marks, the umpire will not take that ball out of play, however, if the running back is taken down near the out of bounds line, the umpire will ask for a new ball for the next down. What is the criteria in terms of when the umpire should take the ball out of play on a running play?
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 03, 2012, 05:40pm
APG APG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,889
To your first question, I would say no. Pinning the ball against the ground wouldn't constitute possession of the ball.
__________________
Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, given a chance to climb, they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions.

Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.

Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 03, 2012, 10:11pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 923
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmagan View Post
When a running back runs into the line of scrimmage near the hash marks, the umpire will not take that ball out of play, however, if the running back is taken down near the out of bounds line, the umpire will ask for a new ball for the next down. What is the criteria in terms of when the umpire should take the ball out of play on a running play?
When working 6 or 7-man mechanics, a new ball is usually rotated in when the down ends outside the top of the numbers or there is an incomplete pass not quickly retrieved. This relies on good ball boys and good ball mechanics by the sideline officials.

With 5-man mechanics the same ball is usually used during an entire drive unless there is a long incomplete pass.
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 03, 2012, 11:57pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,875
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmagan View Post
If, on a field goal/extra point, while the holder is holding the tip of the ball (waiting for the place kicker to kick it), if he is touched by a defender, is the holder down by contact?
"An official shall declare dead ball and the down ended...[w]hen a runner is contacted by a defensive player and he touches the ground with any part of his body except his hands or feet...."

"A player is in possession when he is in firm grip and control of the ball inbounds."

"The runner is an offensive player who is in possession of a live ball."

So the only issue is whether the player holding the ball for a place kick is in firm grip and control of the ball, or whether the ball is considered loose at the time. I think it's in player possession and therefore would be dead under the conditions described.
Quote:
When a running back runs into the line of scrimmage near the hash marks, the umpire will not take that ball out of play, however, if the running back is taken down near the out of bounds line, the umpire will ask for a new ball for the next down. What is the criteria in terms of when the umpire should take the ball out of play on a running play?
When the umpire thinks it's scuffed enough to give the pitcher an unwarranted advantage.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 04, 2012, 06:13am
APG APG is offline
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 5,889
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
"An official shall declare dead ball and the down ended...[w]hen a runner is contacted by a defensive player and he touches the ground with any part of his body except his hands or feet...."

"A player is in possession when he is in firm grip and control of the ball inbounds."

"The runner is an offensive player who is in possession of a live ball."

So the only issue is whether the player holding the ball for a place kick is in firm grip and control of the ball, or whether the ball is considered loose at the time. I think it's in player possession and therefore would be dead under the conditions described.
I don't know how a player pinning the ball, with one finger, to the ground, equals a player having a firm grip of the ball.
__________________
Chaos isn't a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some, given a chance to climb, they refuse. They cling to the realm, or the gods, or love. Illusions.

Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is.

Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 04, 2012, 07:25am
Archaic Power Monger
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 5,983
Quote:
Originally Posted by APG View Post
I don't know how a player pinning the ball, with one finger, to the ground, equals a player having a firm grip of the ball.
FWIW, in NCAA and Fed this would be considered possession as there are explicit exceptions allowing the holder to have his knee on the ground and not be down.
__________________
Even if you’re on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there. - Will Rogers
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 04, 2012, 08:14am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Katy, Texas
Posts: 8,033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Goodman View Post
"An official shall declare dead ball and the down ended...[w]hen a runner is contacted by a defensive player and he touches the ground with any part of his body except his hands or feet...."

"A player is in possession when he is in firm grip and control of the ball inbounds."

"The runner is an offensive player who is in possession of a live ball."

So the only issue is whether the player holding the ball for a place kick is in firm grip and control of the ball, or whether the ball is considered loose at the time. I think it's in player possession and therefore would be dead under the conditions described.
Well that's definitive enough for me. Ruling: No, he is not down.
__________________
I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'”

West Houston Mike
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 04, 2012, 05:41pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,875
Probably I should've quoted a little more of this one:

"The runner is an offensive player who is in possession of a live ball [cross-ref. omitted], i.e. holding the ball or carrying it in any direction."

Since NFL's definition of "placekick" ends, "The ball may be held in position by a teammate.", I conclude that the type of "hold" on the ball referred to in the first one includes that in the other.

I'm omitting place references, because it's likely some of them have been renumbered since the edition I have, but unlikely that their wording has changed.

These are pretty old rules, at least some of the language probably dating to a time they shared NCAA's, and it appears they muddied the water by that "i.e." phrase, which has the potential of providing conflicting definitions of player possession in the case of a live ball. I think they should be read in such a way as to make them conform to each other, so that holding the ball be considered sufficient to have possession, and since the placekick definition uses the word "held", no judgement is needed -- that they're saying by definition that the ball being placed is in possession of the placer.

The alternative would be to consider the placement of the ball on the ground with the hand still on it to be a fumble, "any act, other than a pass or legal kick, which results in loss of player possession." That would make a live-ball placekick an act of kicking a live loose ball. Unfortunately the same rule book says, "No player may deliberately kick any loose ball or ball in player's possession.", which apparently makes a live ball place kick illegal whether the ball is deemed loose or in the holder's possession! Probably an editorial error omitting the word "opposing" before "player's", huh? If we make that mental correction, then it would seem the ball being placed for the kick would have to remain in the placer's possession, else making the kicking of the ball illegal.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 04, 2012, 05:58pm
Adam's Avatar
Keeper of the HAMMER
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: MST
Posts: 27,190
I think you're reading way too much into the wording here.

It seems clear to me that the exception allowing the holder to have his knee on the ground in all other codes would apply to a holder who gets touched by a defender in the NFL. The fact that it isn't worded accordingly is a result of the fact that it's obvious, and anyone actually working an NFL game would know this.
__________________
Sprinkles are for winners.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Thu Oct 04, 2012, 06:10pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam View Post
I think you're reading way too much into the wording here.

It seems clear to me that the exception allowing the holder to have his knee on the ground in all other codes would apply to a holder who gets touched by a defender in the NFL. The fact that it isn't worded accordingly is a result of the fact that it's obvious, and anyone actually working an NFL game would know this.
No, I don't think it works that way because of the history of this rule difference. It was NCAA that introduced the rule providing that a runner was down on touching the ground other than with hands or feet, and so it was only NCAA and Fed that required that exception. Therefore the combination of touching an opponent and (other than with hands or feet) the ground was needed only in NFL rules. It would be strange to apply a provision from codes where the exception was necessary to one where it is not necessary.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2 rules questions GTJT622 Basketball 5 Fri Jan 23, 2009 10:39pm
rules questions lakers8 Basketball 6 Thu Dec 18, 2008 04:42pm
Some rules questions hags7 Baseball 12 Tue May 02, 2006 10:04am
rules questions tsumpire Football 2 Sun Dec 11, 2005 01:14pm
2 rules questions roadking Basketball 3 Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:56pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:52am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1