Pulling the pile?

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

#2 and 32 are directly contacting the runner in the video I posted.
Like I said most officials won't call it. I watched the OHSAA state finals 2 years ago and saw it 5 times in one game where the FB came up and pushed the QB toward the goal line. No call, the next year I believe it was a POE.

I don't doubt that in many "pushing the pile" situations there may very well be undetected "helping the runner" occuring. However, officials do not have the luxury of "suspecting" what may be going on, that many spectators enjoy.

For a field official, applying Penalties is restricted to only those rule violations that are directly and unequivocaly observed in their entirety, or perceived to have been observed.

When observed, Helping the Runner is a foul, if not directly observed it should not be called, and you should understand this foul, when a large group of players are involved is extremely difficult to observe.

[bigjohn]

An offensive player shall not push, pull or lift the runner to assist his forward
progress.
PENALTY: Helping the runner (S44) – 5 yards.

So if you as an official feel his forward progress isn't assisted it is not a foul? BS, that is what they are trying to do.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

9 other players. 41% of the people on the field.

When they're part of a pile? No way.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

An offensive player shall not push, pull or lift the runner to assist his forward
progress.
PENALTY: Helping the runner (S44) – 5 yards.

So if you as an official feel his forward progress isn't assisted it is not a foul? BS, that is what they are trying to do.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

An offensive player shall not push, pull or lift the runner to assist his forward
progress.
PENALTY: Helping the runner (S44) – 5 yards.

So if you as an official feel his forward progress isn't assisted it is not a foul? BS, that is what they are trying to do.

Last try here. not sure why I bother though.

what part of "push, pull or life THE RUNNER" is unclear?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

When they're part of a pile? No way.

There are no rules whatsoever that say what you can do to a teammate that doesn't have the ball, with the exception of interlocking your arms while blocking. Pushing or pulling on your own player who does not have the ball is not illegal.

[HLin NC]

You know, I've found the "ignore poster" function in the user CP is a blissful experience.

[bigjohn]

#32 is pushing the runner!

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

There are no rules whatsoever that say what you can do to a teammate that doesn't have the ball, with the exception of interlocking your arms while blocking. Pushing or pulling on your own player who does not have the ball is not illegal.

Fed 2-3-9: "Interlocked blocking occurs when one player grasps or encircles a teammate just prior to or while blocking an opponent."

NCAA: "Teammates of the ball carrier or passer...shall not use interlocked interference by grasping or encircling one another in any manner while contacting an opponent."

How can you pull without grasping?

[bcl1127]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

#32 is pushing the runner!

Picasa Web Albums - john knight

sideways and not assisting the runner in moving forward, if anything it appears he pushes the runner into the defender. This is a penalty that is called, but it needs to be obvious assisting of the runner. I have called it two times, and each time it was like a train moving down the field with a runner and another player right on his back pushing.

in your world, if a player lays a pinky on the runner it is a foul...

[bigjohn]

Pretty obvious that the runner was assisted in moving forward in the video I posted, to fit the definition, I showed where #32 was pushing the runner. If the runner gains more yards than he would have without the assist of others, it should be called helping the runner. No where does it say he must be touching the runner directly to do this. If you are pushing the car I am in and I get to the gas station, you were pushing me and the car, no?

If I am tangled up in a pile or scrum or whatever, pushing the whole pile does assist in the runne's forward progress and that is how it should be called. You guys are always telling me not to be so litteral in interpreting the rules but here is a case of most officials doing just that!

[PocketSidewalk]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around pulling an entire pile without the aid of some netting and mechanized equipment.

+1

This was exactly the kind of thing that popped into my mind when I first read the OP.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

Fed 2-3-9: "Interlocked blocking occurs when one player grasps or encircles a teammate just prior to or while blocking an opponent."

NCAA: "Teammates of the ball carrier or passer...shall not use interlocked interference by grasping or encircling one another in any manner while contacting an opponent."

How can you pull without grasping?

Now I know I'm being punked. I'm not going to define "while blocking" or "while contacting an opponent" for you, but that rule is completely inapplicable in the situation we're discussing.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

No where does it say he must be touching the runner directly to do this.

Except for the words in the rule. your inference is absurd.

If I was legally blocking an opponent and he contacted his teammates back - have I now blocked in the back?

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

Pretty obvious that the runner was assisted in moving forward in the video I posted, to fit the definition, I showed where #32 was pushing the runner. If the runner gains more yards than he would have without the assist of others, it should be called helping the runner. No where does it say he must be touching the runner directly to do this. If you are pushing the car I am in and I get to the gas station, you were pushing me and the car, no?

If I am tangled up in a pile or scrum or whatever, pushing the whole pile does assist in the runne's forward progress and that is how it should be called. You guys are always telling me not to be so litteral in interpreting the rules but here is a case of most officials doing just that!

Based on your definition here if I'm already in the middle of the pile (because I'm a lineman and we all get into a scrum together) and the runner comes into the back of us and we are collectively able to help the runner gain an extra yard or two by pushing the pile, you want it flagged as assisting the runner.