Moving Pile

[MI Official]

Our Crew has discussed this numerous times this season. So I justthought I would throw it out to the board here.
A is running the ball and B is clearly trying to"strip" the ball from A. At what point do you stop the play if the runner is still making progress while B is content on trying to get the ball. Additionally, As U I assume that I would be looking for anything cheap in the "scrum" as well a possible turn over, how would you signal to the wingmen if a turnover had occurred and the defense is heading the other way, other than a bag, which can be hard to see if the wingmen are trying to determine if progress had been stopped or not.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by MI Official

Our crew has discussed this numerous times this season. So I just thought I would throw it out to the board here. A is running the ball and B is clearly trying to "strip" the ball from A. At what point do you stop the play if the runner is still making progress while B is content on trying to get the ball. Additionally, As U I assume that I would be looking for anything cheap in the "scrum" as well a possible turn over, how would you signal to the wingmen if a turnover had occurred and the defense is heading the other way, other than a bag, which can be hard to see if the wingmen are trying to determine if progress had been stopped or not.

Here are some principles that I use:

1. If at any time, A1 is trying to make progress, but can't, then the play is dead in my mind first. My whistle comes ½ a second later.
   1. If A1 breaks free, too bad.
   2. If B steals the ball, too bad.
2. If A1 gives up trying to progress, the play is dead if any B player is trying to prevent progress. If B players are only trying to strip the ball, then game on.
3. If I feel that A's safety is in question, then I blow it dead. Example: I see that more B players are on the way, and A's legs are in a vulnerable position (perhaps already twisted in an odd way).

Why do you bean bag a change of possession that isn't a fumble?

[MRH]

Why do you bean bag a change of possession that isn't a fumble?

You are marking the end of the run which is needed should you have a penalty that would be enforced from the end of the run.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Why do you bean bag a change of possession that isn't a fumble?

Why do you not? (I agree with the rest of your post)

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Why do you not? (I agree with the rest of your post)

Like the US, we here in Canada bean bag certain spots. The spots are called points of interest and a change of possession is not one of them. For us, they are:

• Point of Fumble
• Point of Possession, which is actaully the worse of:
  • Point of First Touching
  • Point of Actual Possession
• Point of Blocked Kick

I think that's it.

What we do not care about:

• Point of Interception
• Point of Fumble Recovery
• Point of Foul
  • Exception: DPI < 15 y

[Jim D]

Here is my pet peve for this play. An upright runner is being stopped and the covering official marks the spot but doesn't blow his whistle because he's waiting to see what happens. If the runner breaks free, they give up the spot and let the play go - if the runner is pushed back, they give him the spot they had.

To me, that's giving the runner too many advantages. If he's stopped, blow it dead and give him his progress. If he's not, let the play go and then, when his progress really is stopped, then pick that spot for the forward progress.

[PaulJak]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Like the US, we here in Canada bean bag certain spots. The spots are called points of interest and a change of possession is not one of them. For us, they are:

• Point of Fumble
• Point of Possession, which is actaully the worse of:
  • Point of First Touching
  • Point of Actual Possession
• Point of Blocked Kick

I think that's it.

What we do not care about:

• Point of Interception
• Point of Fumble Recovery
• Point of Foul
  • Exception: DPI < 15 y

Juggling, for those of us using Fed rules, stripping the ball is a fumble.

2-18 defines a fumble as any loss of player possession other than by handing, passing or legal kick.
2-19 defines handing as something between teammates (there's more but it isn't relevant here).

So in our rule code stripping of the ball from A by B in a pile is a fumble (even though the ball hasn't hit the group) and we bag that. If Canadian code defines a fumble and handing the same way, then based on your list of points of interest, I would think you'd have a bag too - but that all depends on your definitions.

Paul

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by PaulJak

Juggling, for those of us using Fed rules, stripping the ball is a fumble.

2-18 defines a fumble as any loss of player possession other than by handing, passing or legal kick.
2-19 defines handing as something between teammates (there's more but it isn't relevant here).

So in our rule code stripping of the ball from A by B in a pile is a fumble (even though the ball hasn't hit the group) and we bag that. If Canadian code defines a fumble and handing the same way, then based on your list of points of interest, I would think you'd have a bag too - but that all depends on your definitions.

Paul

You are completely correct! I was thinking of striping the ball in the sense that a B player takes the ball out of the hands of an A player. But if B knocks the ball away from A's possession, but doesn't yet have it himself, then the ball is loose, and should be bagged.

You would surprised how many times I see the ball switch from A to B without the ball being airborne. It happens 3-4 times every season in pop warner!

[PaulJak]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

You are completely correct! I was thinking of striping the ball in the sense that a B player takes the ball out of the hands of an A player. But if B knocks the ball away from A's possession, but doesn't yet have it himself, then the ball is loose, and should be bagged.

You would surprised how many times I see the ball switch from A to B without the ball being airborne. It happens 3-4 times every season in pop warner!

I don't think I was clear enough, in exactly the scenario you are picturing where B takes it out of the A players hands and the ball is never airborne I've got a fumble by Fed definition and therefore a bag. The A player has lost player possession in a manner that is not handing, passing or a legal kick. The key to this being a fumble is that handing, as defined by the rule book, can not occur between opponents. So even though visually it looks like handing, its not handing as the rules define it.

When B strips the ball from A, regardless of if the ball is ever airborne, it is a fumble.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by PaulJak

I don't think I was clear enough, in exactly the scenario you are picturing where B takes it out of the A players hands and the ball is never airborne I've got a fumble by Fed definition and therefore a bag. The A player has lost player possession in a manner that is not handing, passing or a legal kick. The key to this being a fumble is that handing, as defined by the rule book, can not occur between opponents. So even though visually it looks like handing, its not handing as the rules define it.

When B strips the ball from A, regardless of if the ball is ever airborne, it is a fumble.

Interesting. It goes back to why a bag is needed. In Canada, we bag a fumble because if there is an IW, it goes back to the team that last had possession, at the Point of Fumble. Hence, the need for the bag. If there is a "takeaway" and an IW goes off, the covering official has to judge if A ever lost possession.

It does make sense that handing cannot occur between opponents.

I actually have a copy of Fed books from '05, but it's not like I ever have time to read them.

[PaulJak]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Interesting. It goes back to why a bag is needed. In Canada, we bag a fumble because if there is an IW, it goes back to the team that last had possession, at the Point of Fumble. Hence, the need for the bag. If there is a "takeaway" and an IW goes off, the covering official has to judge if A ever lost possession.

It does make sense that handing cannot occur between opponents.

I actually have a copy of Fed books from '05, but it's not like I ever have time to read them.

For Fed, the "why" we would bag this is related to penalty enforcement.

For instance: 1st and 10 on the A20, A2 runs a sweep and is stripped (no airborne football here) at the A35 yard line. During A2s run, B11 blocks A11 below the waist at the A24 yard line. Wouldn't you need to know where A2 lost possession to properly enforce the penalty? (In this example, the basic spot is the end of the run - A35, the B foul is behind the basic spot, so enforce from the basic spot - 15 yards. 1st and 10 for A from the 50)

Do you do something different in this case?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by PaulJak

For Fed, the "why" we would bag this is related to penalty enforcement.

For instance: 1st and 10 on the A20, A2 runs a sweep and is stripped (no airborne football here) at the A35 yard line. During A2s run, B11 blocks A11 below the waist at the A24 yard line. Wouldn't you need to know where A2 lost possession to properly enforce the penalty? (In this example, the basic spot is the end of the run - A35, the B foul is behind the basic spot, so enforce from the basic spot - 15 yards. 1st and 10 for A from the 50)

Do you do something different in this case?

Scrimmage play penalties are enforced from point ball held or point of last scrimmage, depending if the line to gain was reached, or not reached, respectively.

In your scenario, the block below the waist is enforced from either PBH or PLS, depending on where the ball was when the foul happened. You didn't specify that data, so I can't give the final ruling.

[andy1033]

The foul for blocking below the waist is enforced from the EOR which is where the ball was stripped.