Fishing in my Pond

[Redneck Ref]

Working as Linesman (10 years) during a varsity contest. During a pass play on my side near sideline. A makes catch and B hits him and drives him back but is unable to bring him down (loses control of tackle). A then shakes B off for a moment and curls back and then is tackled to the ground by B. I have the spot and then the Linejudge (5 years) comes running across the field yelling that he was up further (3 yards) that A was driven back. I'm sure that I have the right spot. The white hat goes with his spot. The team on my sideline was also wondering why he was watching my sideline. At half time we talk about this play. I tell the Linejudge to stay out of my area wheather I am right or wrong. He should not be watching my area all away across the field. He then becomes defensive and started to yell that he could see the better spot. The linejudge is one of our local top basketball officials and played college football. He is one that will never admit he is wrong. Any thoughts?

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by Redneck Ref

Working as Linesman (10 years) during a varsity contest. During a pass play on my side near sideline. A makes catch and B hits him and drives him back but is unable to bring him down (loses control of tackle). A then shakes B off for a moment and curls back and then is tackled to the ground by B. I have the spot and then the Linejudge (5 years) comes running across the field yelling that he was up further (3 yards) that A was driven back. I'm sure that I have the right spot. The white hat goes with his spot. The team on my sideline was also wondering why he was watching my sideline. At half time we talk about this play. I tell the Linejudge to stay out of my area wheather I am right or wrong. He should not be watching my area all away across the field. He then becomes defensive and started to yell that he could see the better spot. The linejudge is one of our local top basketball officials and played college football. He is one that will never admit he is wrong. Any thoughts?

Did you tell him that A broke the tackle and that in your opinion forward progress hadn't been stopped?

[JRutledge]

There is a thing called cross field mechanics, but if you have a spot and sure about that spot, then your spot should be used. But it is not unusual to have a spot from the opposite wing when there is a push back. That being said you should know when that is necessary and go with the best spot. But I would not agree that he cannot help on that, but this should be discussed more and the wing does not need to run across the field to let you know he has a different spot. That part was over the top and unnecessary.

Peace

[jTheUmp]

IMHO, cross-field mechanics work best if we've got a "runner ends up way out of bounds" situation or if there's a big pileup at the sideline such that the wing on that sideline can't get to the forward progress spot in a timely fashion.

Neither of those seem to be in play in this situation.

When you discussed the play with your LJ, it's probably best never to use the words "stay out of my area whether I am right or wrong"; that kind of language will make almost anyone defensive, especially because it sounds as if you're getting defensive when you say it in the first place.

Instead, discuss it as a "I saw the runner break free from the tackle, that's why I marked the spot where I did"... it's possible that the LJ, in his effort to keep the "forward progress spot", stopped looking at the runner and never saw him break free.

[Fiji07]

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

IMHO, cross-field mechanics work best if we've got a "runner ends up way out of bounds" situation or if there's a big pileup at the sideline such that the wing on that sideline can't get to the forward progress spot in a timely fashion.

How would the opposite wing be able to get a spot when a runner ends up way out of bounds? There is no way the wing could tell where the spot should be when the play goes out of bounds.

Cross-Field mechanics were designed, from what I can tell, to handle exactly the situation the OP had. Except that he had the tackle broken and forward progress not stopped

Redneck_Ref - Not sure if you did at the time of the play but you needed to make sure to communicate to your LJ and R that you had the tackle broken, therefore forward progres not stop when he was driven back.

[MD Longhorn]

"stay out of my area wheather I am right or wrong"...

OR

"Thanks for getting that spot, but I had him breaking the tackle and forward progress restarted back here."

Potato, Tomahto.

[Tom.OH]

Our assn. had a guy who would also do this. One game I was the U and he threw a flag from the LJ position into the backfield, the very experienced R asked him who was covering his area while he was covering the Rs area. Thank heavens he moved out of state several years ago!

[Kirby]

And what difference does 10 years experience vs. 5 years experience matter in this situation? I would rather work with a lot of "single-digit" year experience guys than some of my fellow "double-digit" year experience guys in my area.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by Redneck Ref

I tell the Linejudge to stay out of my area wheather I am right or wrong...

Any thoughts?

Yeah, this is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard an official say. On a pass play near your sideline you should be trailing the play. The opposite wing probably did have a better look at forward progress than you did.

Sounds to me like someone's ego got a little bruised.

[whitehat]

Had a similar situation last night. I was HL. big pile up out near numbers opposite sidline. I got a spot from my side (crossfield mechanics) of where i thought forward progress was stopped. Suddenly, as LJ is running in toward the pile the ball gets stripped and returned by B for about 20 yards.

Coach on my sideline was not happy thinking forward progress had been stopped before his kid was stripped of the ball. I explained I could not clearly see the runner or the ball (neither could the coach) but would go check with the LJ. LJ said pile was still moving and kid was stripped before progress stopped. The coach remained convinced we blew that one.

What caused the situation to become controversial was when the LJ ran in toward the pile, no whistle, as if progress was stopped. Had he stayed where he was on the sideline and let the play develop it would have looked cleaner and been easier to sell, and having been still might have been able to get a better look himslef (running and seeing are not always a good combination).

When I went over to talk with the LJ I did not use condescending words, but simply asked him what he saw and that I did not have a clear view of the runner or the ball but had a spot of what I thought was forward progress. He explained his side, we gave the ball to B and I went and did damage control with the coach on my sideline.

Lesson 1: If progress not stopped, don't move in towards the pile as if it has.
Lesson 2. work as a team and don't use language that will cause a crew member to become defensive. This LJ is a good official and now he will be even better with this mechanics tweak.
lesson 3: we all make mistakes and becoming "territorial" like the comment in the OP is counterproductive to good crew relations and mechanics. there is a proper time and place to maybe have a stronger discussion, but on the field in the middle of a game does no one any good IMO.

peace.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by whitehat

Lesson 1: If progress not stopped, don't move in towards the pile as if it has.
Lesson 2. work as a team and don't use language that will cause a crew member to become defensive. This LJ is a good official and now he will be even better with this mechanics tweak.
lesson 3: we all make mistakes and becoming "territorial" like the comment in the OP is counterproductive to good crew relations and mechanics. there is a proper time and place to maybe have a stronger discussion, but on the field in the middle of a game does no one any good IMO. peace.

I agree wholheartedly with lessons 2 and 3. When there is an apparent difference of conclusion between field officials, the appropriate way to deal with it is for those officials to get together, share each other's perspectives and agree on a single conclusion.

That discussion should be immediate and as private as possible and absent any gestures or signals until a conclusion is agreed upon. Priority should be given to the official who saw something as opposed to the officials whose conclusion is based on something not seen (i.e. a forward pass SEEN to touch the ground before being caught versus a pass NOT SEEN to touch the ground before being caught, would be ruled incomplete).

I didn't understand the suggested lesson 1. Had the LJ believed progress was stopped, I believe he would have signalled so with his whistle as he was converging. Moving towards the ball and NOT sounding a whistle would suggest to me that he was still observing a live ball.

Any subsequent explanations you choose to make can be easily handled by simply informing "He (the other official) had the better view and saw something I didn't". If, or to what extent, you choose to amplify that information is up to you, but usually, the less said the better.

[GetItRight]

Someone needs a lesson in watching his area of responsibility and not watching the ball carrier when he is out of his zone. Classic case of ball watching rather than his area of responsibility. Easiest way to explain it is that if the ball is nto in his zone, and he is not watching his zone, that no one is covering his zone and bad things can happen. Explain the need to watch his zone and have faith that his partners can do their job.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by GetItRight

Someone needs a lesson in watching his area of responsibility and not watching the ball carrier when he is out of his zone. Classic case of ball watching rather than his area of responsibility. Easiest way to explain it is that if the ball is nto in his zone, and he is not watching his zone, that no one is covering his zone and bad things can happen. Explain the need to watch his zone and have faith that his partners can do their job.

I kind of disagree.

We should definitely be officiating in our area - if we don't, no one will, but we should also be observing ALL areas. If there is a question about a play, the last thing the white hat wants to hear is "I don't know. It wasn't my area."

We need to take care of our area, but we also need to have an opinion about everything that happens on the field. If you don't have all the information because you couldn't see everything, you need to articulate that during the discussion. Form an opinion but be open to new information.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by GetItRight

Someone needs a lesson in watching his area of responsibility and not watching the ball carrier when he is out of his zone. Classic case of ball watching rather than his area of responsibility. Easiest way to explain it is that if the ball is nto in his zone, and he is not watching his zone, that no one is covering his zone and bad things can happen. Explain the need to watch his zone and have faith that his partners can do their job.

Never heard of cross-field mechanics, I guess.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Never heard of cross-field mechanics, I guess.

I guess he never knew that forward progress involves two people, not just one.

Peace