Ball on the 1 or touchback????

[zebra14]

Play last week.
K Punt from the 50. Ball bounces down to the 1, R is not near the ball to return it. The ball becomes at Rest for 1 1/2 seconds. K2 comes sliding in to down the ball but but his mometum carries it into the endzone. We then have the whistle of the play being dead.

I have heard 2 different rulings.

1. Ball at the 1 because the ball was at Rest so that means the play is dead right there.

2. Touchback as there was a force to bring it into the endzone.

Thoughts?

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by zebra14

Play last week.
K Punt from the 50. Ball bounces down to the 1, R is not near the ball to return it. The ball becomes at Rest for 1 1/2 seconds. K2 comes sliding in to down the ball but but his mometum carries it into the endzone. We then have the whistle of the play being dead.

I have heard 2 different rulings.

1. Ball at the 1 because the ball was at Rest so that means the play is dead right there.

2. Touchback as there was a force to bring it into the endzone.

Thoughts?

NFHS

4-2-2 The ball becomes dead and the down is ended:

(f) When the kickers catch or recover any free kick anywhere, and when the kickers catch or recover a scrimmage kick beyond the neutral zone and when the kickers are first (i.e., before any touching by the receivers) to touch a scrimmage kick after it has come to rest beyond the neutral zone and between the goal lines.

The ball was dead at the 1 as soon as he touched the ball at rest. First and 10 for R from the 1 yard line.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by zebra14

Play last week.
K Punt from the 50. Ball bounces down to the 1, R is not near the ball to return it. The ball becomes at Rest for 1 1/2 seconds. K2 comes sliding in to down the ball but but his mometum carries it into the endzone. We then have the whistle of the play being dead.

I have heard 2 different rulings.

1. Ball at the 1 because the ball was at Rest so that means the play is dead right there.

2. Touchback as there was a force to bring it into the endzone.

Thoughts?

Assuming not NFL, you have the right ruling (1), but not the right reason. A ball at rest is not dead unless the official also believes no one is going to play on it. As stated by Inside, though, once K touches that resting ball, it IS dead.

Probably not an important distinction until you have that Mud Bowl game where R is actually still heading toward a bounding punt that goes PLUNK and sticks "at rest". R, if they are still trying to, can still pick up this ball.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by zebra14

Play last week.
K Punt from the 50. Ball bounces down to the 1, R is not near the ball to return it. The ball becomes at Rest for 1 1/2 seconds. K2 comes sliding in to down the ball but but his mometum carries it into the endzone. We then have the whistle of the play being dead.

I have heard 2 different rulings.

1. Ball at the 1 because the ball was at Rest so that means the play is dead right there.

2. Touchback as there was a force to bring it into the endzone.

Thoughts?

If the ball is absolutely motionless and K does this, then you have no choice but to rule it dead on K's touch. The rule has already been cited.

However, if the ball is moving the least little bit, then your question is live again. The ruling should be:

1. First touching by K at the 1, and then
2. K muffs the kick into the endzone, which results in a touchback.

R would have the choice between taking the ball at the spot of first touching and taking the result of the play. I wouldn't bother offering them this choice: just spot the ball at the 20 and play on, 1st and 10.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by zebra14

K Punt from the 50. Ball bounces down to the 1, R is not near the ball to return it. The ball becomes at Rest for 1 1/2 seconds. K2 comes sliding in to down the ball but but his mometum carries it into the endzone. We then have the whistle of the play being dead.

I have heard 2 different rulings.

1. Ball at the 1 because the ball was at Rest so that means the play is dead right there.

2. Touchback as there was a force to bring it into the endzone.

If the ball had not come to rest, you would have to rule on whether K2 gained possession of it while it was still in the field of play.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

If the ball had not come to rest, you would have to rule on whether K2 gained possession of it while it was still in the field of play.

...and of course, when K2 comes sliding in to down the ball, you are going to rule possession immediately because the ball is close to his body......

Never mind that it squirts out and into the EZ.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by asdf

...and of course, when K2 comes sliding in to down the ball, you are going to rule possession immediately because the ball is close to his body......

No, only because it's on his body, sandwiched with the ground.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

No, only because it's on his body, sandwiched with the ground.

So ... you've reversed your opinion from the other thread?

[tomes1978]

I disagree, I say it's a touchback. The kick does not end unless it is possessed or dead by rule. The ball does not become dead until it is at rest and nobody is pursuing the ball. I explained to a kid a couple weeks back in a Junior High game who was on the kicking team. The ball stopped and he ran up and touched it and ran away from it. I explained to him that his touching did not kill that play. If R wanted to they could have ran up and picked that ball up with nothing to loose, as R could always take the spot of first touching.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by tomes1978

I disagree, I say it's a touchback. The kick does not end unless it is possessed or dead by rule. The ball does not become dead until it is at rest and nobody is pursuing the ball. I explained to a kid a couple weeks back in a Junior High game who was on the kicking team. The ball stopped and he ran up and touched it and ran away from it. I explained to him that his touching did not kill that play. If R wanted to they could have ran up and picked that ball up with nothing to loose, as R could always take the spot of first touching.

If you are disagreeing with the ball being dead when K touches a motionless ball that has not been touched by R, then you would be wrong.

InsideTheStripe has already quoted the rule that would make your ruling incorrect.

In your situation, if the ball had been MOVING and K merely touched it, then what you explained to him would be right. As it is, you misinformed a young football player and should seek him out to correct your mistake.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by tomes1978

I disagree, I say it's a touchback. The kick does not end unless it is possessed or dead by rule. The ball does not become dead until it is at rest and nobody is pursuing the ball. I explained to a kid a couple weeks back in a Junior High game who was on the kicking team. The ball stopped and he ran up and touched it and ran away from it. I explained to him that his touching did not kill that play. If R wanted to they could have ran up and picked that ball up with nothing to loose, as R could always take the spot of first touching.

That is correct for NCAA but not for Fed. If K touches a scrimmage kick at rest beyond the neutral zone, the ball is dead.

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by tomes1978

I disagree, I say it's a touchback. The kick does not end unless it is possessed or dead by rule. The ball does not become dead until it is at rest and nobody is pursuing the ball. I explained to a kid a couple weeks back in a Junior High game who was on the kicking team. The ball stopped and he ran up and touched it and ran away from it. I explained to him that his touching did not kill that play. If R wanted to they could have ran up and picked that ball up with nothing to loose, as R could always take the spot of first touching.

Assuming Indiana kids play under NFHS rules, you're not only wrong as it pertains to the dead ball situation, but wrong when it comes to first touching as well. R can't ALWAYS take the ball at the spot of first touching.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by tomes1978

I disagree, I say it's a touchback. The kick does not end unless it is possessed or dead by rule. The ball does not become dead until it is at rest and nobody is pursuing the ball. I explained to a kid a couple weeks back in a Junior High game who was on the kicking team. The ball stopped and he ran up and touched it and ran away from it. I explained to him that his touching did not kill that play. If R wanted to they could have ran up and picked that ball up with nothing to loose, as R could always take the spot of first touching.

Disagree all you like, but please take a look at that rule again. You're right if R gets the ball. But not if K does - and specifically your interp is incorrect WRT the OP AND the play you just had in your JH game.

[tomes1978]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Disagree all you like, but please take a look at that rule again. You're right if R gets the ball. But not if K does - and specifically your interp is incorrect WRT the OP AND the play you just had in your JH game.

I stand corrrected, I see it now. Thanks!!

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

So ... you've reversed your opinion from the other thread?

No, that's what I wrote in the other thread.