Touchback or not?

[BigGref]

Asking for thoughts on the following situation.

4th and 8 from midfield, K1 kicks a beauty all the way towards the endzone, R1 who was in position to catch at the 10 does the whole fair catch signal and lets the ball go over his head.

K2, coming from the side, runs parellel to the goaline and catches the ball after it bounces once at the 5, he catches it like marvin harrison (or other local WR), grabbing it out of the air at the 1, gets his feet down in the field of play, then his momentum immeadiately carries him into the endzone where he falls to the ground. So where do you put the ball?

[MJT]

If the ball never crossed the GL, and he completed the recover in the field of play as you stated, the ball became dead at that point. It would be B's ball at the 1 yard line.

[ajmc]

The scrimmage kick has touched the ground and K2 has possessed the ball, and touched down at the R-1. Since K can recover a grounded scrimmage kick, but not advance it, the play is dead when K possessed the scrimmage kick. 1st & 10 for R at the R-1, which is both the spot of first touching and the spot where the play ended.

All momentum did was cause K to carry a dead ball into the EZ, which has no bearing on anything.

[BktBallRef]

Think of it this way.

K2 catches the kick at the 31 but doesn't stop until he gets to the 25. Where are you going to spot it?

I would hope at the 31. Just because he carries into the EZ in your play, it doesn't change that the ball is dead when he catches it at the 1.

[Bob M.]

REPLY: Agree with what everyone has said--ball dead at R's 1.

Different play: Same punt bounces at R's 5. K1 leaps and while airborne controls the ball over R's 2. He subsequently lands with the ball in R's endzone. RULING: ??

[kdf5]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: Agree with what everyone has said--ball dead at R's 1.

Different play: Same punt bounces at R's 5. K1 leaps and while airborne controls the ball over R's 2. He subsequently lands with the ball in R's endzone. RULING: ??

2-36-1 . . . A recovery is gaining possession of a live ball after it strikes the
ground. An airborne player has completed a recovery when he first contacts the ground inbounds with the ball in his possession.

8-5-3a1 . . . It is a touchback when:
a. Any free kick or scrimmage kick:
1. Which is not a scoring attempt or which is a grounded three-point
field-goal attempt, breaks the plane of R’s goal line unless R chooses a
spot of first touching by K.

Touchback.

[KWH]

The result of the play is a Rouge!
Award Team A (K) 1-point
(Unless the 1-point would effect the fianl score)


Couldn't resist the temptation!

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by KWH

The result of the play is a Rouge!
Award Team A (K) 1-point
(Unless the 1-point would [strikeout]effect[/strikeout]affect the final score)


Couldn't resist the temptation!

Incorrect!


If the play were to happen as in the OP, it would be:


CANADIAN RULING:

• If K2 was onside (onside in relation to punter K1, at the time of kick), then it is a touchdown for K.

• If K2 was offside (offside in relation to punter K1, at the time of kick), then we have a restraining zone foul. The Point of Application is the Point of Possession, which is where K obtained possession of the ball - which is the R 1 yard line. Result: R 1D/10 @ R-16.

[prosec34]

Originally Posted by ajmc

The scrimmage kick has touched the ground and K2 has possessed the ball, and touched down at the R-1. Since K can recover a grounded scrimmage kick, but not advance it, the play is dead when K possessed the scrimmage kick. 1st & 10 for R at the R-1, which is both the spot of first touching and the spot where the play ended.

All momentum did was cause K to carry a dead ball into the EZ, which has no bearing on anything.

Well, he's not really "advancing" the football, is he? It's not going to be his at the end of play.

I don't think his possession of the ball is established until he hits the ground and completes the act of coming down, which in this case ends up in the end zone. But I don't have my rulebook in front of me, either. I might be wrong, but it doesn't seem like he'd be awarded for falling into the EZ.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by Bob M.

REPLY: Agree with what everyone has said--ball dead at R's 1.

Different play: Same punt bounces at R's 5. K1 leaps and while airborne controls the ball over R's 2. He subsequently lands with the ball in R's endzone. RULING: ??

I'll give it a shot. R's ball at the 2.

I would use the same philosophy as for an airborne receiver who catches a pass in the endzone but his first contact with the ground is in the field of play. The result of that play is a touchdown.

[svm1010]

Original post,

Yea for K2, heads up play!!! R 1st and 10 on R1 (or where ever first touching is ruled if it is ahead of where he touched the ground).

Follow up Post:

Originally Posted by Blue37

I'll give it a shot. R's ball at the 2.

I would use the same philosophy as for an airborne receiver who catches a pass in the endzone but his first contact with the ground is in the field of play. The result of that play is a touchdown.

Well, it's not the same when you are dealing with the other teams GL. Probablly a better logic would be to use the sideline instead. would you rule a catch if the player (untouched by the opponent) caught the ball and landed out of bounds? No, you have an incomplete pass. In that situation the catch was not complete and the ball was still live when it crossed the GL, ergo, touchback

[ajmc]

prosec34, "advancing the ball" has nothing to do with this situation. The reality, and rule, is that the instant K touches the ground in possession of a scrimmage kick the ball is dead and the play over. His subsequent movement into the end zone is with a dead ball.

[KWH]

What's with all the halabalou?

BigGref's Play: K2 has "Recovered" the ball at the 1 yard line.
R Ball on the R-1 yard line, 1st and 10, Start Clock on the Snap.
2-36-1, 4-2-2f

Bob M's Play: K2 has "Recovered" the ball in R's endzone. The result of the play is by rule a touchback!
R's Ball on the R-20yard line, 1st and 10, Start Clock on the Snap.
2-36-1, 4-2-2d1, 6-3-1

For those of you still not conviced, please reference 2008 Casebook: 6.3.1 SITUATION A

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by ajmc

All momentum did was cause K to carry a dead ball into the EZ, which has no bearing on anything.

Except in NFL, where the dead ball is held in abeyance.

[Bob M.]

Originally Posted by Blue37

I'll give it a shot. R's ball at the 2.

I would use the same philosophy as for an airborne receiver who catches a pass in the endzone but his first contact with the ground is in the field of play. The result of that play is a touchdown.

REPLY: The key to this ruling is understanding the definition of "recovery." (See, you knew we'd somehow come back to rule 2 on this one ). Look at rule 2-36-1. It says that "An airborne player has completed a recovery when he first contacts the ground inbounds with the ball in his possession." And where did he first contact the ground? In the endzone. hence, he completed the recovery in the endzone maiking this a TB.

Granted, he was guilty of 'first touching' at R's 2, but obviously R will never take the ball there in this case.