Taking a knee

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Is your "area" really telling you to invent a rule and call unsportsmanlike conduct for A) legally running a fake play or B) committing a legal defensive act? That's just stupid. There's no other word. And I guarantee your STATE is not telling you to do this... so what happens when your "area" teams move up in the playoffs?

In any of these cases, you are going the game and the kids a disservice by changing the way a play should have played out.

We have had this discussion before but there are rules that govern faking things in football.

Secondly no one says "do not hit anyone." I have never said that or expected that to happen. Of course they are going to hit each other, but telling players the intentions when the game is clearly over is warning them to not go over the top with their behavior. If a QB takes a knee and he is cleaned I would rather tell them something then have a full out fight. And so you know "teams all over the state know this procedure." It is nothing special when a team enters the playoffs. Also when teams are in the playoffs, they are likely to play games with area teams anyway. Most of my playoff games were always with teams in conferences in the area. Only once was a game with teams in one part of the state and the other was from the other end of the state (St. Louis area and a Chicago area suburban team) and that was a Semi-Final. I recall the same thing happen in that game and no one made a big deal out of it, which is why this is strictly and area thing. The expectations of our teams are to end the game calmly.

Peace

[JasonTX]

Why even take the last snap then if we are expecting both teams to just quit and not do anything? Just call the game over and be done if we are preventing the defense one last shot to try to get the ball.

Some may say the defense could never get the ball. I say wrong. I had a game where the QB was going to do the kneel down as he told us he was. Well, on the snap it was muffed. Luckily for the defense I didn't tell them anything so they were coming full speed. Offense had their guard down and the defense recovered the ball. Next play was a TD for Team B to win the game. Imagine if I would have told the defense not to do anything. If the offense tells me they are taking the knee I just let them know they better block because the defense is not stopping.

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

Why even take the last snap then if we are expecting both teams to just quit and not do anything? Just call the game over and be done if we are preventing the defense one last shot to try to get the ball.

Some may say the defense could never get the ball. I say wrong. I had a game where the QB was going to do the kneel down as he told us he was. Well, on the snap it was muffed. Luckily for the defense I didn't tell them anything so they were coming full speed. Offense had their guard down and the defense recovered the ball. Next play was a TD for Team B to win the game. Imagine if I would have told the defense not to do anything. If the offense tells me they are taking the knee I just let them know they better block because the defense is not stopping.

I would literally pay to see video of this. Not saying it didn't happen, but would love to see the subsequent reaction of the opposing staff, team, crowd and especially...the officials.

[BIG UMP]

I'll have to admit I'm in the say nothing group.

It is not our job to inform the defense to stop playing or to not try and get the ball legally.

Hypothetical situation: A muffs the snap and we have told the defense to lay off. A recovers the muff and wins, while the defense goes to their sideline and says the referees said not to hit them. How will you ever answer the questions your supervisors have, not to mention the irate coaching staff?

[SE Minnestoa Re]

I'm not a big fan of telling them to lay off. I however tell them regularly if the QB does kneel down, I want nothing stupid happening.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by SE Minnestoa Re

I'm not a big fan of telling them to lay off. I however tell them regularly if the QB does kneel down, I want nothing stupid happening.

Bingo.

"They say they are taking a knee. Be smart."

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Bingo.

"They say they are taking a knee. Be smart."

Agree as well. "Drop down quickly and don't hit the QB late" works as well.

I am still waiting for teams to figure out that they can already be on a knee when the ball is snapped.

[Canned Heat]

1) The original post referenced an 8th grade game. I've worked hundreds of these over 20 years and can tell you 8th grade kids will try nearly anything and will forget almost everything. "Preventative officiating" can be considered part-time coaching at this level.

2) Far too often is a good day with a well called game turned sour on the last few snaps because of a situation that pops up at the end of the game. Any kid that's played ball for more than a year or two should know the drill by the time he's in high school anyway. If you get rated by the coaching staffs, the way we do in WI, no matter how good your crew was....a sour note at the final whistle is the last thing the coach remembers when he grabs his eval form that night or the next day.

3) I've been pro-active with this, and I have yet to sniff anything considered unfair or not in the spirit of the game by showing the hand on the last play. The team being kneeled upon has had 47 minutes and 30 seconds to get the lead and couldn't do it. If anything, this is good game management.

4) Doing little to nothing in this situation is far worse than doing or saying too much to prevent something from breaking bad, IMO....see the Sarasota Gators video.

5) There are other words to use in lieu of stupid.

[Jim S]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We have had this discussion before but there are rules that govern faking things in football.

Peace

And what would these "Live Ball" rules be?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jim S

And what would these "Live Ball" rules be?

Not sure what live ball rules you are talking about. But it is clear that you cannot run deception plays in football anymore. They cannot fake taking a knee.

Peace

[CT1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not sure what live ball rules you are talking about. But it is clear that you cannot run deception plays in football anymore. They cannot fake taking a knee.
Peace

Would you care to quote the rule that prohibits a fake take-a-knee play?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CT1

Would you care to quote the rule that prohibits a fake take-a-knee play?

First of all it is a state interpretation to do this.

Secondly 9.9.1 Situation B Comment talks about unfair acts.

Third this play is totally outlawed at the NCAA level. If they fake tacking a knee the play is to be shut down.

Peace

[jTheUmp]

NCAA Rule 4-1-3:
ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle
or declare it dead:
...
o. When a ball carrier simulates placing his knee on the ground.
...

[CT1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

First of all it is a state interpretation to do this.

Then you should have said so.

Secondly 9.9.1 Situation B Comment talks about unfair acts.

Before the snap.

Here's the Comment in it's entirety:

COMMENT: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

Third this play is totally outlawed at the NCAA level. If they fake tacking a knee the play is to be shut down.

The OP's play was during a middle-school game. Unless it was in Texas or Massachussets, NCAA rules don't apply. FED has no such specific prohibition.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CT1

Then you should have said so.

Actually I did say so. I said this is what we do; I honestly do not care if others do something different or what justification they use. I made that clear very early and Rich said to follow the standards of your area in the first couple posts on this thread.

And most of all we have had this discussion many times before. No one is going to change the minds of others and I certainly am not trying to change other's minds.

Originally Posted by CT1

Before the snap.

Here's the Comment in it's entirety:

COMMENT: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

For the record around here, they announce they are taking a knee. It happens in just about every game. The purpose is so they can end the game amicably and without incident or as little incident as possible.

Originally Posted by CT1

The OP's play was during a middle-school game. Unless it was in Texas or Massachussets, NCAA rules don't apply. FED has no such specific prohibition.

I realize what the game we were talking about. The point is multiple levels have made it clear that if they are taking a knee we are proactive in not letting things continue or get out of hand. If you and others do not do this, so be it. Why would anyone really care what you do that does not live in your area? Also a middle school game is often played around here under NF rules and philosophies, so what is expected at the HS level is applied to the middle school/Pop Warner/Bill George leagues. And I also never said we tell players that they cannot hit each other or play football. I said that it is known they will take a knee and we tell players to behave. No different than what umpires in my area tell defensive teams when there is a scrimmage kick. They tell them what they can do with the snapper and it is up to the players to either listen or get penalized.

Peace