Taking a knee

[Jim S]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

We have had this discussion before but there are rules that govern faking things in football.

Peace

And what would these "Live Ball" rules be?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Jim S

And what would these "Live Ball" rules be?

Not sure what live ball rules you are talking about. But it is clear that you cannot run deception plays in football anymore. They cannot fake taking a knee.

Peace

[CT1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not sure what live ball rules you are talking about. But it is clear that you cannot run deception plays in football anymore. They cannot fake taking a knee.
Peace

Would you care to quote the rule that prohibits a fake take-a-knee play?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CT1

Would you care to quote the rule that prohibits a fake take-a-knee play?

First of all it is a state interpretation to do this.

Secondly 9.9.1 Situation B Comment talks about unfair acts.

Third this play is totally outlawed at the NCAA level. If they fake tacking a knee the play is to be shut down.

Peace

[jTheUmp]

NCAA Rule 4-1-3:
ARTICLE 3. A live ball becomes dead and an official shall sound his whistle
or declare it dead:
...
o. When a ball carrier simulates placing his knee on the ground.
...

[CT1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

First of all it is a state interpretation to do this.

Then you should have said so.

Secondly 9.9.1 Situation B Comment talks about unfair acts.

Before the snap.

Here's the Comment in it's entirety:

COMMENT: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

Third this play is totally outlawed at the NCAA level. If they fake tacking a knee the play is to be shut down.

The OP's play was during a middle-school game. Unless it was in Texas or Massachussets, NCAA rules don't apply. FED has no such specific prohibition.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by CT1

Then you should have said so.

Actually I did say so. I said this is what we do; I honestly do not care if others do something different or what justification they use. I made that clear very early and Rich said to follow the standards of your area in the first couple posts on this thread.

And most of all we have had this discussion many times before. No one is going to change the minds of others and I certainly am not trying to change other's minds.

Originally Posted by CT1

Before the snap.

Here's the Comment in it's entirety:

COMMENT: Football has been and always will be a game of deception and trickery involving multiple shifts, unusual formations and creative plays. However, actions or verbiage designed to confuse the defense into believing there is problem and a snap isn’t imminent is beyond the scope of sportsmanship and is illegal.

For the record around here, they announce they are taking a knee. It happens in just about every game. The purpose is so they can end the game amicably and without incident or as little incident as possible.

Originally Posted by CT1

The OP's play was during a middle-school game. Unless it was in Texas or Massachussets, NCAA rules don't apply. FED has no such specific prohibition.

I realize what the game we were talking about. The point is multiple levels have made it clear that if they are taking a knee we are proactive in not letting things continue or get out of hand. If you and others do not do this, so be it. Why would anyone really care what you do that does not live in your area? Also a middle school game is often played around here under NF rules and philosophies, so what is expected at the HS level is applied to the middle school/Pop Warner/Bill George leagues. And I also never said we tell players that they cannot hit each other or play football. I said that it is known they will take a knee and we tell players to behave. No different than what umpires in my area tell defensive teams when there is a scrimmage kick. They tell them what they can do with the snapper and it is up to the players to either listen or get penalized.

Peace

[Rich]

If the QB tells me he's taking a knee, I guess we'll just have an IW when he fakes doing so. Shrug.

Again, this is regional. If every crew in your area says something, you should too. If every crew in your area doesn't say anything, neither should you.

[Texas Aggie]

The officials should not have mentioned anything to the defense.

Ahhh, no.

This is horrible advice and I hope those following it do not see a kid hurt on a play like this. Injuries are virtually never your fault, but in this case, if someone gets hurt and you didn't tell everyone a knee was coming, in my view, that's on you.

Regional or not, its stupid not to inform the players. The R walks up and says, "offense will take a knee; defense, do not hit anyone; offense, you are committed and you can't fake it." Sorry to sound arrogant, but this is the ONLY way to handle this. I wouldn't work for anyone that told me any different.

[HLin NC]

Our game Friday night, offense failed to convert on fourth down and about 11 secs to go. All I said (and normally say) in these situations to their defense was "Be smart guys).

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

Our game Friday night, offense failed to convert on fourth down and about 11 secs to go. All I said (and normally say) in these situations to their defense was "Be smart guys).

That is pretty much what we say.

Peace

[Cobra]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

Regional or not, its stupid not to inform the players. The R walks up and says, "offense will take a knee; defense, do not hit anyone; offense, you are committed and you can't fake it." Sorry to sound arrogant, but this is the ONLY way to handle this. I wouldn't work for anyone that told me any different.

What if the snap is muffed? Can the defense hit someone and recover the ball? What if the offense doesn't take a knee? How exactly are they committed to running a certain play?

As has been posted there are regional differences in how to handle this situation....but your way of handling it is the ONLY one that is 100% wrong.

And it is not the officials fault if anyone gets hurt on a kneel down play. It is no different than any other down of the game. The ball becomes live and players run into each other and injuries happen. The only difference is that the offense is trying to end the down quickly therefore there isn't much time for an injury to occur.

[JasonTX]

It's not over til the clock is on 0:00. Offense has a game to finish by blocking and the defense has a job to do by trying to make a play. They have every right to play hard until the ball is dead by rule. It is not my job to take away an oppurtunity by telling them to lay off. If anyone is afraid of someone getting hurt and expecting the defense to lay off, then why don't you just disregard the 25 sec. clock and just let the clock run off without having another snap? Either way you handle it, you are still taking the oppurtunity that team B has at getting to the ball. JMO.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by JasonTX

It's not over til the clock is on 0:00. Offense has a game to finish by blocking and the defense has a job to do by trying to make a play. They have every right to play hard until the ball is dead by rule. It is not my job to take away an oppurtunity by telling them to lay off. If anyone is afraid of someone getting hurt and expecting the defense to lay off, then why don't you just disregard the 25 sec. clock and just let the clock run off without having another snap? Either way you handle it, you are still taking the oppurtunity that team B has at getting to the ball. JMO.

This is what is so frustrating with having a real conversation with many here. You take words and place them in people's arguments because you do not agree with it. No one here said anything about preventing someone getting hurt or stop from someone playing hard. We tell players to do things all the time and they either follow or they suffer the consequences. We tell players to line up a certain way (when to move up on the line or move back off the line), we tell them to watch their hands or stop when the play is over and we even tell them not to hit the center directly, but all of a sudden it is wrong to inform players of the situation where a team has clearly decided they are not going to run a play and to tell them to "be careful" which has always meant to me is not go over the top and start some trouble. If the damn offense fumbles the ball, then they fumble the ball and everything is the same. But that is not what anyone cares about; they are trying to stop players from over reacting to things that happen when the player is over. How about allowing a player to run head strong over the line and hit a player that is not blocking anymore? Are we to just say, "Well that is football." Usually when the game is over is the time when things can clearly get out of hand and have gotten that way in the past.

Peace

[JasonTX]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is what is so frustrating with having a real conversation with many here. You take words and place them in people's arguments because you do not agree with it. No one here said anything about preventing someone getting hurt or stop from someone playing hard. We tell players to do things all the time and they either follow or they suffer the consequences. We tell players to line up a certain way (when to move up on the line or move back off the line), we tell them to watch their hands or stop when the play is over and we even tell them not to hit the center directly, but all of a sudden it is wrong to inform players of the situation where a team has clearly decided they are not going to run a play and to tell them to "be careful" which has always meant to me is not go over the top and start some trouble. If the damn offense fumbles the ball, then they fumble the ball and everything is the same. But that is not what anyone cares about; they are trying to stop players from over reacting to things that happen when the player is over. How about allowing a player to run head strong over the line and hit a player that is not blocking anymore? Are we to just say, "Well that is football." Usually when the game is over is the time when things can clearly get out of hand and have gotten that way in the past.

Peace

Do you tell them to "be careful" on every play of the game? The defense, I believe, is fully aware that they cannot hit a player after the ball is dead. When you tell a kid to "be careful" on a kneel down you have essentially told him to not go full speed. You have a muffed snap and the defense has basically quit because that is how they interpret your "be careful" you have taken away their right to play to 0:00. I believe in preventive officiating 100%. I'm just as prepared to flag a late hit on a kneel down play just as I am a normal play in the first qtr. I'm quickly coming in when he takes a knee, just as I do on any other play where there are piles of players after making a tackle. As I said previously, if you are expecting the players to ease up, then just let the clock run without a delay foul.