For Derock...and others

[Bob M.]

Derock,

I read this board rather infrequently and may have posted to it only once or twice. But some of the threads below got my attention. Some of your theories about "game sense" vs. rules knowledge are disturbing. Why must the two be considered mutually exclusive?? The good (and successful) official must have a healthy helping of both of those qualities as well as human relations, mechanics knowledge, communication skills, professional demeanor and some other things. Don't try to weigh one against the other. Blend them all into a complete package. No official can be truly successful relying only on game sense any more than an official can survive relying only on rules knowledge.

I officiate HS and college ball and have been at this game for 24 years. I have a pretty good knowledge of both the Federation and NCAA rule books and I like to think I can apply common sense to game situations.

I have a friend who's a head linesman in the NFL. He didn't get there by accident. Does he know his rules? Probably better than you or I ever will. Does he employ a common sense approach to the game? If he didn't, he would never have reached the level at which he's now working, nor would he have worked in the playoffs for the last two years. He even conducts a clinic each season called "Common Sense Officiating" for our HS and college associations. The theme of his clinic: applying a common sense approach to officiating the game within the context of a solid foundation in the rules and mechanics.

Derock, as a new official, you might even be ahead of the game. Often, newer officials learn the rules and blindly enforce them without regard for how the game is proceeding or how a particular play is developing. It's only after a few years that they learn (often the hard way) to apply the God-given gift of common sense. But now, you need to learn the rules thoroughly. Common sense alone will only get you so far. If you want to progress beyond pee-wee or youth ball, you need to attack the rule book and case book in earnest.

One other thing that ALL good officials know: Never discount out of hand anything a more experienced official says. Hear it, evaluate it, test it out, and decide whether or not it works for you. Many of the guys who post here have been trying to get through to you on the value a a solid knowledge of the rules. To this point, it appears that you'd rather argue with them than listen. Swallow your pride, listen to them, study the rules, and apply your game sense next season with that knowledge to back up any decisions you make. Good luck and best wishes for a satisfying career in stripes.

[mikesears]

Excellent post, Bob M!

I think you summed up being a good official very well.

[Ed Hickland]

Good post Bob.

There are some officials who rely almost entirely "game sense" and just pay passive attention to the rules. Of course, they don't come to this board, or review the rules or take the annual test seriously. But somehow seem to show up each week for the game.

[Derock1986]

Originally posted by Bob M.
Derock, as a new official, you might even be ahead of the game. Often, newer officials learn the rules and blindly enforce them without regard for how the game is proceeding or how a particular play is developing. It's only after a few years that they learn (often the hard way) to apply the God-given gift of common sense. But now, you need to learn the rules thoroughly. Common sense alone will only get you so far. If you want to progress beyond pee-wee or youth ball, you need to attack the rule book and case book in earnest.

Thank you Bob M. I understand and agree with your post. I tried to explain myself as best as I can to all the officials who post here that I am a "youth" official and that my posts are based entirely upon my experience in officiating youth games under NFHS rules. I never came here to challenge anyone's knowledge NOR was I looking to be taught or teach the rules. It was my understanding that this forum was open to anyone who wished to post their comments, statements, or opinions on the forum subject. One thing that we all have in common is we all share a love or interest for the game of football. I am not here representing anyone and I value the posts of other officials about as much as they value mine. In my experience in youth football, the use of common sense (game sense) is utilized just as much as rule knowledge. If my emphasis of game sense vs rule knowledge is found to be disturbing then I can certainly understand coming from an official who does not officiate youth games. Let me emphasize the fact that I work with kids! You can't deal with kids the same way you deal with adults. The kids play under the same rules as the adults (high schoolers) but you have to take a more common sense approach in applying those rules when you're dealing with 8 year olds vs 18 year olds. Now if my working with youths means I'm less of an official then I certainly do not agree with that. I am just as good at calling my youth games than any official officiating at any level. An NFL official may find it extremely difficult to officiate youth just as I would find it almost impossible to officiate NFL. Why? Different rules AND an entirely different approach and style of officiating. You yourself said that I might even be ahead of the game when it comes to using common sense. I am convinced that this is because of my experience entirely as a youth official. If I decide to take my game to the varsity level, then rule knowledge will become more of a factor. Please don't misunderstand me, learning the rules is the most important part of becoming an official but some of the questions/cases mentioned in this forum are way to complex for youth. When dealing with youth, I keep it simple. There won't be any calls made in my games that will require a rule book to explain. I will manage the game where it will be safe, fair, and entertaining for the players, coaches, and spectators. Youth football is all about the kids. There are no scholarships or careers at stake. No money is involved. Nothing ruins youth athletics more than adults who take it way too seriously. I'm not just referring to the out-of-control parent but also the out-of-control official who has dreams of one day officiating in the NFL or college and calls the youth game with the spirit of an NFL or college official.

I am very good at what I do (officiating YOUTH games) and I will continue to post freely, as I have, my comments and opinions supported from my experience as a youth official. If you disagree with my posts, thats ok. As I said earlier, I'm not trying to teach anyone anything and common sense gets better with experience. I would question why someone would come to an online forum (which is mostly opinionated) to learn or better yourself as an official. I am sure there are more credible sources online where you could get information on officiating than this forum. I think the officials come here and respond to my posts because they find debatable subjects fun. If everyone here agreed on everything, visits would probably drop.

[shocker]

Originally posted by Derock1986

Let me emphasize the fact that I work with kids! You can't deal with kids the same way you deal with adults.

Youth football is all about the kids. There are no scholarships or careers at stake. No money is involved.

I would question why someone would come to an online forum (which is mostly opinionated) to learn or better yourself as an official. I am sure there are more credible sources online where you could get information on officiating than this forum.

Derock...I have been coming here for awhile and I see alot of posts towards you and alot of arguments with you. You said that you cannot deal with kids the same way as adults. I am guessing around 90% or more of the officials here are dealing with Junior High and older and most of the threads are about those game situations. So when you try to bring your youth situations into an older kids game situation, that is why nobody agrees with you.

You say that youth games are all about the kids. I agree that you have to let them play a little more but you also have to teach them the rules of the game. No money is at stake, but them learning the game how it is supposed to be played is at stake.

The third part of your quote says you wonder why someone would come here to learn. Well I came here because there are alot of officials posting here that have alot of knowledge about the game and how to officiate it. If you would read these posts instead of just looking at them, you will learn as well. I trust what alot of these guys say because of the time they put into their preparations. My goal is to go beyond high school ball into NCAA. That's why I want to learn and when you listen you can learn alot. That is fine if you want to do youth games, that's your choice. BUT remember that guys are also here that want to move up so don't give youth game situations in replace of high school situations. I am not here to rag on you, just trying to say what others have tried saying to you in different ways.

[KWH]

Originally posted by Derock1986

"There won't be any calls made in my games that will require a rule book to explain.
I will manage the game where it will be safe, fair, and entertaining for the players, coaches, and spectators."

[/B]

This "Seat of the Pants" & "Make the rules up as you go" style of officiating is why I continue to say you are not a football official.
You never will be until you lose the attitude!

[mikesears]

Originally posted by Derock1986
"There won't be any calls made in my games that will require a rule book to explain.
I will manage the game where it will be safe, fair, and entertaining for the players, coaches, and spectators."

Ok Derock, answer these questions from your youth ball perspective.

1. Team A INTENTIONALLY lines up with the following players all on the line of scrimmage (from left to right).

First Formation
T76 G65 C54 G66 T78 R83 R87

The QB lines up under center....


a. Is there anything illegal about the formation?
b. Who is eligible?
c. What is the call if an illegible is downfield and is first to touch the ball?


Second Formation:
T76 G65 C54 G66 T78 R83 R88 R89

The QB lines up 7 yards deep in a shotgun formation.


a. Is there anything illegal about the formation?
b. Who is eligible?




2. K kicks to R. While the ball is bouncing towards the R's goal line, it strikes R1 in the leg and continues on its own momentum into R's endzone. R1 recovers the ball in his own endzone. What is the call?

3. 1/10 from A-20. A32 runs the ball 20 yards to the A-40. Several seconds after the ball is dead, A78 blocks and levels B99. Please assess the penalty and state down and distance.

4. Same as #3 except A32 only runs the ball 2 yards to the A-22.

5. :05 left in the first half. 1/10 from the A-20. A32 runs the ball 4 yards and the clock expires during the down. During the run, A78 held B99 at the A-22. What are the options here?

[Derock1986]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears
[B]

Originally posted by Derock1986
"There won't be any calls made in my games that will require a rule book to explain.
I will manage the game where it will be safe, fair, and entertaining for the players, coaches, and spectators."

Ok Derock, answer these questions from your youth ball perspective.

1. Team A INTENTIONALLY lines up with the following players all on the line of scrimmage (from left to right).

First Formation
T76 G65 C54 G66 T78 R83 R87

The QB lines up under center....


a. Is there anything illegal about the formation?
b. Who is eligible?
c. What is the call if an illegible is downfield and is first to touch the ball?

Posted by Derock
A. Looks legal to me.
B. T76 and R87 are eligible.
C. Inelligible receiver down field. 10-yards from previous spot, replay the down (YOUTH--NFHS may be a loss of down)

Second Formation:
T76 G65 C54 G66 T78 R83 R88 R89

The QB lines up 7 yards deep in a shotgun formation.


a. Is there anything illegal about the formation?
b. Who is eligible?

Posted by Derock

A. Formation looks legal to me.
B. T76 and R89 are eligible.


2. K kicks to R. While the ball is bouncing towards the R's goal line, it strikes R1 in the leg and continues on its own momentum into R's endzone. R1 recovers the ball in his own endzone. What is the call?

Posted by Derock
A kick that goes to the endzone in youth is extremely rare but I'll give it a shot. Touchback. R gets the ball on their 20 yard line.


3. 1/10 from A-20. A32 runs the ball 20 yards to the A-40. Several seconds after the ball is dead, A78 blocks and levels B99. Please assess the penalty and state down and distance.

Posted by Derock
I have a dead ball personal foul on A78. The enforcement spot is from the end of the run, 15-yard penalty, Team A has the ball 1/10 from B-45.


4. Same as #3 except A32 only runs the ball 2 yards to the A-22.

Posted by Derock
Team A has the ball 1/10 from A-37.


5. :05 left in the first half. 1/10 from the A-20. A32 runs the ball 4 yards and the clock expires during the down. During the run, A78 held B99 at the A-22. What are the options here?

Posted by Derock
The defense has the option of accepting the penalty and replaying or extending the half by one down OR they can decline the penalty and the half is over. If they accept the penalty it will be 1/18 (penalized from the spot of the foul) from the A-12.

How was that? Do I meet your approval as an official now? Can I now be an accepted member of this elite forum? Doesn't matter because I'll be on the field calling my games just like every other official here will be.

[Edited by Derock1986 on Jan 20th, 2003 at 08:24 AM]

[mikesears]

Originally posted by Derock1986
"There won't be any calls made in my games that will require a rule book to explain.
I will manage the game where it will be safe, fair, and entertaining for the players, coaches, and spectators."

Orginally posted by MikeSears
Ok Derock, answer these questions from your youth ball perspective.

1. Team A INTENTIONALLY lines up with the following players all on the line of scrimmage (from left to right).

First Formation
T76 G65 C54 G66 T78 R83 R87

The QB lines up under center....

a. Is there anything illegal about the formation?
b. Who is eligible?
c. What is the call if an illegible is downfield and is first to touch the ball?

Posted by Derock
A. Looks legal to me.

Posted by Mike
Correct. Nothing Illegal about the formation

Posted by Derock
B. T76 and R87 are eligible.

Posted by Mike
Incorrect. #76 is ineligible due to his jersey number. Players must be eligible by position AND number. I realize some youth leagues have exceptions due to limited number of jerseys, but in high school, this is a foul.

Posted by Derock
C. Inelligible receiver down field. 10-yards from previous spot, replay the down (YOUTH--NFHS may be a loss of down)

Posted by Mike
Partly correct. Ineligibles that touch a pass beyond the neutral zone commit offenisve pass interference. Currently under NFHS, OPI is 15 yards and loss of down. Ineligible downfield is 5-yards with NO loss of down.


Second Formation:
T76 G65 C54 G66 T78 R83 R88 R89

The QB lines up 7 yards deep in a shotgun formation.

a. Is there anything illegal about the formation?
b. Who is eligible?

Posted by Derock
A. Formation looks legal to me.

Posted by Mike
Correct. Just because 8 players are on the line doesn't mean it is illegal. Good call.

Posted by Derock
B. T76 and R89 are eligible.

Posted by Mike
Incorrect. #76 is still ineligible. The numbering exception ONLY applies to having 5 players on the line numbers 50-79, not to who is eligible and ineligible to receive forward passes. (Again, youth leagues my offer modifications to the numbering rule).


2. K kicks to R. While the ball is bouncing towards the R's goal line, it strikes R1 in the leg and continues on its own momentum into R's endzone. R1 recovers the ball in his own endzone. What is the call?

Posted by Derock
A kick that goes to the endzone in youth is extremely rare but I'll give it a shot. Touchback. R gets the ball on their 20 yard line.

Posted by Mike
Good call. Most of the fans and coaches are going to say, "but he touched the ball". Doesn't matter unless it was a new force. I've had to explain this at the youth level once. Rulebook situation that wasn't understood by the coaches (and fans).


3. 1/10 from A-20. A32 runs the ball 20 yards to the A-40. Several seconds after the ball is dead, A78 blocks and levels B99. Please assess the penalty and state down and distance.

Posted by Derock

I have a dead ball personal foul on A78. The enforcement spot is from the end of the run, 15-yard penalty, Team A has the ball 1/10 from B-45.

Posted by Mike
I'm not sure if you are correct. -- I'm learning. Help me out on this one guys. Won't it be 2/5? A new line-to-gain is not established until all live-ball and dead-ball fouls are penalized, right?

4. Same as #3 except A32 only runs the ball 2 yards to the A-22.


Posted by Derock
Team A has the ball 1/10 from A-37.

Posted by Mike
Incorrect. 2/23 for Team A. Haste in answering may have been at fault for this one


5. :05 left in the first half. 1/10 from the A-20. A32 runs the ball 4 yards and the clock expires during the down. During the run, A78 held B99 at the A-22. What are the options here?

Posted by Derock
The defense has the option of accepting the penalty and replaying or extending the half by one down OR they can decline the penalty and the half is over. If they accept the penalty it will be 1/18 (penalized from the spot of the foul) from the A-12.

Posted by Mike
Correct. Again, you show SOME knowledge of the rules that the common fan doesn't. I'd be sure to explain to Team B (and B's coach) that the half will end if they decline the penalty.

Posted by Derock
How was that?

Posted by Mike
About average. How long have you been officiating?

Posted by Derock
Do I meet your approval as an official now?

Posted by Mike
I'm not trying to flame you. My approval means nothing. This was an only attempt to show you that officiating without thoughougly understanding the rules can lead to some interesting interpretations. Trust me, the day will come when a coach who knows the rules will call for your head on a plate for an interesting ruling made.

Posted by Derock
Can I now be an accepted member of this elite forum?

Posted by Mike
I doubt that acceptance will ever be forthcoming until the attitude improves. Every official worth his salt should be interested in learning and this is a great place to do it! Once in a great while we get fans who are just venting. Once in even a greater while, we get officials who don't care about the rules. What this forum expects is that people will come humbly here to post plays and situations and accept answers in a positive and constructive way. Most every other official here is willing to admit mistakes and learns a great deal.

Posted by Derock
Doesn't matter because I'll be on the field calling my games just like every other official here will be.

Posted by Mike
Officiating is going to be a frustrating venture until the tone changes and the willingness to learn is presented. I'd encourage you to learn from these guys. I'd hate to see what the officials at mcgriffs forum would do to you!

[Derock1986]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by shocker

Originally posted by Derock1986
The third part of your quote says you wonder why someone would come here to learn. Well I came here because there are alot of officials posting here that have alot of knowledge about the game and how to officiate it. If you would read these posts instead of just looking at them, you will learn as well. I trust what alot of these guys say because of the time they put into their preparations. My goal is to go beyond high school ball into NCAA. That's why I want to learn and when you listen you can learn alot. That is fine if you want to do youth games, that's your choice. BUT remember that guys are also here that want to move up so don't give youth game situations in replace of high school situations. I am not here to rag on you, just trying to say what others have tried saying to you in different ways.

Shocker,
If coming here helps you to move up or learn more about officiating then thats great! I am not trying to replace high school game situations with youth situations. Officials from around the world from all levels come here and share their experiences in officiating. If you are pursuing college-level officiating, then you might want to pay more attention to officials here who are at the college level. Me, I'm a youth official, so why would my posts concern you? The common denominator in officiating at all levels is the application of common sense--not rules because rules vary from youth to NFL AND from the east coast to the west coast. Common sense is why I can look the NFL official Mr Blum in the face and say you made a bad call. Common sense is why I can comment or express an opinion on any call made where common sense is a factor. Most of my arguments with the other officials are in the application of common sense along with the rules. If you or any of the other officials do not agree with my posts, then simply say that wouldn't work for me in my situation and toss it aside and forget about it. Perhaps one of the greatest features of using forums is it promotes open, free, and often anonymous communication. I have every intention of exercising my right to post my comments and opinions supported by my experiences as a youth official.

[Derock1986]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears
[B]

Originally posted by Derock1986
Posted by Derock
B. T76 and R87 are eligible.

Posted by Mike
Incorrect. #76 is ineligible due to his jersey number. Players must be eligible by position AND number. I realize some youth leagues have exceptions due to limited number of jerseys, but in high school, this is a foul.

In the youth league I officiate, this rule was modified. The only requirement is the player must be on the end of the line or uncovered.

[Derock1986]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears
[B]

Originally posted by Derock1986


3. 1/10 from A-20. A32 runs the ball 20 yards to the A-40. Several seconds after the ball is dead, A78 blocks and levels B99. Please assess the penalty and state down and distance.

Posted by Derock

I have a dead ball personal foul on A78. The enforcement spot is from the end of the run, 15-yard penalty, Team A has the ball 1/10 from B-45.

Posted by Mike
I'm not sure if you are correct. -- I'm learning. Help me out on this one guys. Won't it be 2/5? A new line-to-gain is not established until all live-ball and dead-ball fouls are penalized, right?

Oops, I enforced the penalty in the wrong direction. It should be 2/5 from the A-25.

[Derock1986]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears
[B]

Originally posted by Derock1986
3. 1/10 from A-20. A32 runs the ball 20 yards to the A-40. Several seconds after the ball is dead, A78 blocks and levels B99. Please assess the penalty and state down and distance.

4. Same as #3 except A32 only runs the ball 2 yards to the A-22.

Oops, enforced the play in the wrong direction. It should be 2/19 from the A-11. Half the distance from the 22 yard line.

[Derock1986]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikesears
[B]

Originally posted by Derock1986

Posted by Mike
Incorrect. 2/23 for Team A. Haste in answering may have been at fault for this one

Actually Mike, this should be half the distance.

NFHS Rule 10.1.5.

Enforcement of a penalty cannot take the ball more than half the distance from the enforcement spot to the offending team's goal line. If the prescribed penalty is greater than this, the ball is placed halfway from the spot of enforcement to the goal line.

[James Neil]

Originally posted by Bob M.
Derock,

I read this board rather infrequently and may have posted to it only once or twice. But some of the threads below got my attention. Some of your theories about "game sense" vs. rules knowledge are disturbing. Why must the two be considered mutually exclusive?? The good (and successful) official must have a healthy helping of both of those qualities as well as human relations, mechanics knowledge, communication skills, professional demeanor and some other things. Don't try to weigh one against the other. Blend them all into a complete package. No official can be truly successful relying only on game sense any more than an official can survive relying only on rules knowledge.

I officiate HS and college ball and have been at this game for 24 years. I have a pretty good knowledge of both the Federation and NCAA rule books and I like to think I can apply common sense to game situations.

I have a friend who's a head linesman in the NFL. He didn't get there by accident. Does he know his rules? Probably better than you or I ever will. Does he employ a common sense approach to the game? If he didn't, he would never have reached the level at which he's now working, nor would he have worked in the playoffs for the last two years. He even conducts a clinic each season called "Common Sense Officiating" for our HS and college associations. The theme of his clinic: applying a common sense approach to officiating the game within the context of a solid foundation in the rules and mechanics.

Derock, as a new official, you might even be ahead of the game. Often, newer officials learn the rules and blindly enforce them without regard for how the game is proceeding or how a particular play is developing. It's only after a few years that they learn (often the hard way) to apply the God-given gift of common sense. But now, you need to learn the rules thoroughly. Common sense alone will only get you so far. If you want to progress beyond pee-wee or youth ball, you need to attack the rule book and case book in earnest.

One other thing that ALL good officials know: Never discount out of hand anything a more experienced official says. Hear it, evaluate it, test it out, and decide whether or not it works for you. Many of the guys who post here have been trying to get through to you on the value a a solid knowledge of the rules. To this point, it appears that you'd rather argue with them than listen. Swallow your pride, listen to them, study the rules, and apply your game sense next season with that knowledge to back up any decisions you make. Good luck and best wishes for a satisfying career in stripes.

Great post Bob. But believe me; you’re wasting your time. If you go back and read the posts for the last two months you’d be appalled at some of the stuff this guys been laying on us. He says he’s been doing this for 7 years, but it’s quite apparent he had no clue as to any NFHS rule. I gave him a sincere offer to send him study materials, rule books and anything else he might need so he could learn. He ignored my offer and went on to tell us he worked 20 games that weekend (middle of Dec.) and was paid 600 dollars for his efforts. He doesn’t come here to learn. He just wants us to listen to him tell us how great he is and how he demands the “respect” of coaches, players and his adoring fans. I’m not going to waist any more time reading or responding to his posts. Believe me, there’s no redeeming value to any of it.

BTW …glad to see you posting on this board. Despite having this one imposter, we don’t get the wacko nuts and inappropriate postings we’ve seen on the other boards. 99% of the fellows posting here do want to learn and improve.