Fake FG Question

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Last year week 8 pregame coach asked if this play was legal, and I explained that the holder had to rise to pitch or pass and he said that makes it 4 and 4. 4 WH had told them that season it was legal. (What really bothers me is that 2 of th em I know are working tonight and my season ended after 1st round.)

I wouldn't lose any sleep over that. You don't know how the play was described to anyone else, or what exact answer was given. For example: "is it legal for a holder to pitch or pass?" The WH's might have said "Yes, provided he rises first," and "No, unless he rises first."

And all the coach heard was "Yes, blah blah blah," and "No, blah blah blah."

[Rich]

I'm guessing the coaches asked the right question and the white hats showed that they never open the case book, myself.

[bisonlj]

And my answer would have been, "Yes it's legal. There is no foul for having your knee on the ground. The down is just over."

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

And my answer would have been, "Yes it's legal. There is no foul for having your knee on the ground. The down is just over."

Good point. Might confuse a coach, though.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I'm guessing the coaches asked the right question and the white hats showed that they never open the case book, myself.

It amazes me how many crews in this area go out and work on Friday nights with a very poor understanding of rules, case plays, and especially penalty enforcement.

I talked to a coach prior to a playoff game last week (I was the WH). He works college basketball and *gets* officiating. We have a common officiating friend/colleague (who posts here) and he told me of 3 or 4 enforcements this season that simply befuddled him. As an assistant coach, he wasn't able to convince the head coach to take a time out for a conference and, like he said, if the WH enforced the penalty wrong in the first place, who's to say he would be convinced by the head coach anyway?

Since the main factor in playoff assigning is "coach rating" here, some of those crews will be working deep into the playoffs. I saw on the highlights last week a crew that had a wing position himself on the numbers when the ball was snapped on the opposite hashmark. In the same set of highlights, I saw another crew where a wing didn't go straight to the goal line with a ball snapped at the 4 and ended up signaling a TD from the 2 yard line.

Last season we worked a first round playoff game where the visiting team (from another area) came out on offense and only had 4 players with numbers 50-79 in the game. Flag. Next play: Another flag. Then I got the linesman to get the coach to take a timeout so we could get this fixed before the game became a farce. All season the crews working their games ignored the numbering rules or just didn't know them or pay attention to them.

In other words, nothing surprises me anymore.

But I'm trying to make things better. I've been the football meeting coordinator of my association for the past two years and I've shown a lot of video and tried to get people talking and learning. But we're a state where association membership is only "recommended" and has no relation to assigning or playoff eligibility. So most of the people that are there are ones that already do things right or really want to. When in Rome....

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

It amazes me how many crews in this area go out and work on Friday nights with a very poor understanding of rules, case plays, and especially penalty enforcement.

I talked to a coach prior to a playoff game last week (I was the WH). He works college basketball and *gets* officiating. We have a common officiating friend/colleague (who posts here) and he told me of 3 or 4 enforcements this season that simply befuddled him. As an assistant coach, he wasn't able to convince the head coach to take a time out for a conference and, like he said, if the WH enforced the penalty wrong in the first place, who's to say he would be convinced by the head coach anyway?

Since the main factor in playoff assigning is "coach rating" here, some of those crews will be working deep into the playoffs. I saw on the highlights last week a crew that had a wing position himself on the numbers when the ball was snapped on the opposite hashmark. In the same set of highlights, I saw another crew where a wing didn't go straight to the goal line with a ball snapped at the 4 and ended up signaling a TD from the 2 yard line.

Last season we worked a first round playoff game where the visiting team (from another area) came out on offense and only had 4 players with numbers 50-79 in the game. Flag. Next play: Another flag. Then I got the linesman to get the coach to take a timeout so we could get this fixed before the game became a farce. All season the crews working their games ignored the numbering rules or just didn't know them or pay attention to them.

In other words, nothing surprises me anymore.

But I'm trying to make things better. I've been the football meeting coordinator of my association for the past two years and I've shown a lot of video and tried to get people talking and learning. But we're a state where association membership is only "recommended" and has no relation to assigning or playoff eligibility. So most of the people that are there are ones that already do things right or really want to. When in Rome....

It's a shame we don't work and live closer together....I've echoed these sentiments for years. As we discussed, there's crews I know well that let a QB off the hook in HS for grounding the ball OOB because he's out of the tackle box. Astounding is putting it lightly...and they can't figure out why they never get a playoff assignment, or deeper than Level 1 anyway.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

?

I saw on the highlights last week a crew that had a wing position himself on the numbers when the ball was snapped on the opposite hashmark.

Unless there were players split out towards his side, what is wrong with a wing official moving in off the sideline when the formation is on the opposite side of the field?

I don't know what size crew you are accustomed to, but in a 4 man crew being able to remain out on the sideline, for all types of formations, doesn't work all that well. The same is true for 5 man crews. Obviously, that official is responsible to understand his limitations and ability to retreat, should the play come his way, or reverse towards him, but when a team is running inside consistently and the ball is snapped on the opposite hash mark, you need the off side official "in the game" retaher than parked on a distant sideline.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Unless there were players split out towards his side, what is wrong with a wing official moving in off the sideline when the formation is on the opposite side of the field?

I don't know what size crew you are accustomed to, but in a 4 man crew being able to remain out on the sideline, for all types of formations, doesn't work all that well. The same is true for 5 man crews. Obviously, that official is responsible to understand his limitations and ability to retreat, should the play come his way, or reverse towards him, but when a team is running inside consistently and the ball is snapped on the opposite hash mark, you need the off side official "in the game" retaher than parked on a distant sideline.

This is an old mechanic and not the current thinking for most of the officials across the country. There are some known exceptions, mostly in the SE regions influenced by the SEC.

I've worked for 10 years on the sideline even if the ball is snapped at the opposite hash and have no problems seeing what I'm supposed to see. In 4 or 5 man mechanics there are at least 3 other guys who are close enough to deal with anything immediately in that area once the play is dead. Being on the field can only get you in trouble if the play comes your way. It also helps to keep the sideline clear if you are already there.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

This is an old mechanic and not the current thinking for most of the officials across the country. There are some known exceptions, mostly in the SE regions influenced by the SEC.

I don't know, "most of the officials across the country" well enough to ask, and I believe even the SEC uses 7 officials, and has for some time. Most formations today seem to utilize wider placements which require the wing officials to position themselves wider, closer to the sideline, but when the formation allows, positioning off the sideline, in as far as the numbers, shouldn't present any problems for good officials retreating when necessary and their presence closer to the action can be helpful in stabalizing the contest from an off the ball and dead ball officiating perspective.

Being off the sideline can also be helpful in ignoring the mindless chatter that, at times, eminates from the sideline. Of course, it all depends on the actual game you're working, and the level the game is being played at. At some levels of youth football camping on a sideline takes the wing official virtually out of the game.

[jaybird]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Unless there were players split out towards his side, what is wrong with a wing official moving in off the sideline when the formation is on the opposite side of the field?

Everything.
It's not the approved nor ideal starting place for a LOS official (aka a sideline official).

I don't know what size crew you are accustomed to, but in a 4 man crew being able to remain out on the sideline, for all types of formations, doesn't work all that well. The same is true for 5 man crews. Obviously, that official is responsible to understand his limitations and ability to retreat, should the play come his way, or reverse towards him, but when a team is running inside consistently and the ball is snapped on the opposite hash mark, you need the off side official "in the game" retaher than parked on a distant sideline.

Be it 4, 5, 6 or 7, the only officials who's allowable and acceptable starting positions are on the field are the Referee, Umpire and Back Judge.
Alf, "in the game" refers to a metal state not a physical position.

[jaybird]

Originally Posted by ajmc

I don't know, "most of the officials across the country" well enough to ask...

Alf, you should get out more often.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by ajmc

I don't know, "most of the officials across the country" well enough to ask, and I believe even the SEC uses 7 officials, and has for some time. Most formations today seem to utilize wider placements which require the wing officials to position themselves wider, closer to the sideline, but when the formation allows, positioning off the sideline, in as far as the numbers, shouldn't present any problems for good officials retreating when necessary and their presence closer to the action can be helpful in stabalizing the contest from an off the ball and dead ball officiating perspective.

Being off the sideline can also be helpful in ignoring the mindless chatter that, at times, eminates from the sideline. Of course, it all depends on the actual game you're working, and the level the game is being played at. At some levels of youth football camping on a sideline takes the wing official virtually out of the game.

The place for all wing officials to start is off the field. If you are still advocating working on the field *this long* after this mechanic has been abandoned by officials that know what the hell they're doing, then there's really no point in having a discussion.

My eyes work just as well from the restricted area as the do from the numbers. From the restricted area, I can actually officiate without having to get the hell out of the way every other play.

[Reffing Rev.]

Well,

I try to get a video of our games for training and evaluation purposes, and the school from week 8 last season sent me a copy of their game film, which had both week 7 and week 8 on it.

The week 7 white hat allowed the play in question on the video, holder with knee on the ground and having never raised it flipped the ball to the kicker who through a pass into the end zone. 2 point conversion scored and counted.

I recognized the whitehat because he worked a state semifinal I went to last year, and I remembered it because he spent the entire game on the right-hand side of a left-handed quarterback. But hes one of the "good old boys"

(I'm not saying me or my crew deserve a state semifinal, but there are a lot of excellent officials who don't work past the 1st round of playoffs because good old boys don't need a rulebook, casebook, or manual. And they wonder why we have difficulty recruiting and retaining newer officials.)

[Rich]

We had a fake FG somewhere around Week 8 and from my vantagepoint, it was a no-brainer that the holder got up before flipping it to the kicker.

On tape, though, it was a whole lot closer than I thought. Yes, the knee was off the ground, but maybe by a few inches. I think what made it seem less close is that the holder was on his way up to flip and then lead the blocking. At the time, nothing tripped my trigger that it was close to being a dead ball -- even though I *always* look for it, since I've had it happen to me a few times before.

Sometimes you just get lucky, I guess.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

The place for all wing officials to start is off the field. If you are still advocating working on the field *this long* after this mechanic has been abandoned by officials that know what the hell they're doing, then there's really no point in having a discussion.

My eyes work just as well from the restricted area as the do from the numbers. From the restricted area, I can actually officiate without having to get the hell out of the way every other play.

I realize that things may be done differently in different parts of the country and am a firm believer in "Whatever works best for you". I agree, at the Varsity level considering the type formations regularly employed in today's game, positioning "off the field" is clearly the prominent, and appropriate, positioning.

However, it is NOT etched in stone and ALL officials, "that know what the hell they're doing" are usually cognizant and willing to adjust to the game, and within that game, to the situation they are confronted with, at least in my experience. If you haven't learned "one size NEVER fits ALL", you eventually will.

I suspect, a number of officials work at multiple levels and multiple ages and sometimes what makes perfect sense when dealing with world class athletes at the Varsity level just doesn't make all that much sense when it's applied at the Pee Wee level, which is where many officials learn their trade.

"Too" close is always dangerous, but moving in,an appropriate distance, in a 4 or 5 man configuration, in the right circumstance can be a BIG help for overall crew coverage and performance. However, "Whatever works best for you" adjusted to match the level you're working at, should prevail.