Illegal motion or shift?

[BroKen62]

Reading through the rule book a minute ago and came across this gem in the 2009 edition of NFHS:

The major problem in dealing with false starts is the inconsistency in administration.
Whether or not a false start has occurred, or not, is not predicated upon whether the
defender encroaches or not, or by the down and/or distance.

[bigjohn]

How about 7-1-7b

Hut-Hut-HutHutt!



b. Any act is clearly intended to cause B to encroach.


I have heard many officials say that snap count falls under this but I say, snap count is not an ACT. It is verbiage, now if the team runs a play that is just snap counts and no snap, that ACT was clearly designed to draw B into the NZ.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

How about 7-1-7b

Hut-Hut-HutHutt!

b. Any act is clearly intended to cause B to encroach.

I have heard many officials say that snap count falls under this but I say, snap count is not an ACT. It is verbiage, now if the team runs a play that is just snap counts and no snap, that ACT was clearly designed to draw B into the NZ.

Of course the snap count is an act. The rule should prohibit acts whose ONLY purpose is to cause B to encroach. Since a snap count is part of the sequence leading to a snap, and since teams are legally permitted to vary their snap count, this kind of deception is not a violation of the rules.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Of course the snap count is an act. The rule should prohibit acts whose ONLY purpose is to cause B to encroach. Since a snap count is part of the sequence leading to a snap, and since teams are legally permitted to vary their snap count, this kind of deception is not a violation of the rules.

What would be some examples of acts whose ONLY purpose is to cause B to encroach? Not trying to be cute, but I can't think of any that would not fall under the "sequence leading to a snap."

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

How about 7-1-7b

Hut-Hut-HutHutt!



b. Any act is clearly intended to cause B to encroach.


I have heard many officials say that snap count falls under this

You've heard this from very poor officials. This is legal in ALL levels.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by broken62

reading through the rule book a minute ago and came across this gem in the 2009 edition of nfhs:

the major problem in dealing with false starts is the inconsistency in administration.
Whether or not a false start has occurred, or not, is not predicated upon whether the
defender encroaches or not, or by the down and/or distance.

+1

[bigjohn]

No that isn't what I meant. Many officials on these boards say you can't call 7-1-7b by the book because then you would have to penalize a wild snap count or hard count.

My point is you can still penalize an act that is solely designed to draw B off such as the snap down punt and the possum play(where hard count is used but ball is never snapped)

By rule those are plays(acts) devised just to draw B into the NZ to draw an encroachment penalty!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

the possum play(where hard count is used but ball is never snapped)

By rule those are plays(acts) devised just to draw B into the NZ to draw an encroachment penalty!

The what play? Describe please?

[bigjohn]

4th and less than 5, A lines up in a formation like they are going to run a play, make a quick move to the center, loud HUT!!! Move back in shotgun. Shift! Couple of people move. Then a long series of hard counts, pick foot up, then call time out or let the DOG penalty flag fly and then back up 5 and punt. Just trying to draw the defense off and never intending to snap the ball.

[bigjohn]

want to see snapdown punt, click on 2009 season then piketon and watch both clips, the second one was not called false start even though there is a casebook play that covers it.

Waverly High School Boys Varsity Football Highlight Videos, Schedule & Roster - Hudl

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

4th and less than 5, A lines up in a formation like they are going to run a play, make a quick move to the center, loud HUT!!! Move back in shotgun. Shift! Couple of people move. Then a long series of hard counts, pick foot up, then call time out or let the DOG penalty flag fly and then back up 5 and punt. Just trying to draw the defense off and never intending to snap the ball.

Why in the name of all that's holy would that be illegal?

[bigjohn]

7-1-7
b. Any act is clearly intended to cause B to encroach.


FALSE STARTS
Rule 7-1-7 is clear as to what constitutes a false start. A false start occurs if a player commits
a shift or feigned charge simulating action at the snap, if any player’s act is clearly
intended to cause the defender(s) to encroach, or when any offensive player(s) on the line
between the snapper and the player on the end of the line, after placing his or her hand(s)
on or near the ground, moves his or her hand(s) or makes any quick movement. This last
statement is referring to that final set position prior to the snap that is assumed without a
previous shift occurring or after a previous shift has occurred.