Illegal motion or shift?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Really? So if you have one player "shift," set for less than a second, and the ball is snapped, you have no foul?

Do you meant if you have one player go in motion (one player cannot shift)? He didn't say you'd have no foul - you'd have illegal motion.

[bigjohn]

ILLEGAL MOTION, SHIFT
7.2.7 SITUATION: The quarterback by voice command has signaled his teammates
to assume a set position while he is standing upright behind the center.
The quarterback steps forward and places his hands under the center to receive
the snap: (a) at the instant the snap is made; or (b) which is made after he is
motionless, but prior to one second having elapsed; or (c) which is made after he
is motionless for one second; or (d) which is made after he is motionless for one
second, but while he is stepping backward with one foot as the snap is made.
RULING: In (a), it is illegal motion. In (b), it is an illegal shift. In (c), it is legal. In
(d), it is legal unless a teammate is also in motion at the snap. COMMENT: If the
quarterback drops his hands under the snapper without stepping forward, it is a
shift and not motion. (2-39; 7-2-6)

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

ILLEGAL MOTION, SHIFT
7.2.7 SITUATION: The quarterback by voice command has signaled his teammates
to assume a set position while he is standing upright behind the center.
The quarterback steps forward and places his hands under the center to receive
the snap: (a) at the instant the snap is made; or (b) which is made after he is
motionless, but prior to one second having elapsed; or (c) which is made after he
is motionless for one second; or (d) which is made after he is motionless for one
second, but while he is stepping backward with one foot as the snap is made.
RULING: In (a), it is illegal motion. In (b), it is an illegal shift. In (c), it is legal. In
(d), it is legal unless a teammate is also in motion at the snap. COMMENT: If the
quarterback drops his hands under the snapper without stepping forward, it is a
shift and not motion. (2-39; 7-2-6)

Are you making a point, or just copying stuff?

There is no rule 7.2.7 nor AR 7.2.7.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Are you making a point, or just copying stuff?

There is no rule 7.2.7 nor AR 7.2.7.

He quoted a NF case play to answer an NCAA question.

[bigjohn]

Pretty sure the guy who posted about the jv game uses fed rules.


I was answering him and adding what the NFHS rules are on this.
I know it (illegal shift on QB) seldom gets called.

[mbyron]

Welpe posted a point about NCAA in post #10, and the next 3 posts addressed that issue. You then inserted a NF case play as if it were part of that conversation, prompting mbcrowder's question.

Illegal shift is rarely called on QB's because they hardly ever shift illegally. Of course, your "thing" is that officials don't throw enough flags, so I don't expect this point to have much impact.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

Pretty sure the guy who posted about the jv game uses fed rules.


I was answering him and adding what the NFHS rules are on this.
I know it (illegal shift on QB) seldom gets called.

So, in a post about an NCAA game amid questions about NCAA rules, a single poster mentioned that this happened to him in a FED game, in post 6. You answer him in post 9. Then for some reason you are responding to him again, hours later?

Face it - you just weren't paying attention. Happens to everyone. "oops - my bad" would have gone over much better than rolling your eyes at us.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Face it - you just weren't paying attention. Happens to everyone. "oops - my bad" would have gone over much better than rolling your eyes at us.

Maybe we'll be treated to claims that NCAA officials don't have enough flags either.

[Official]

Ok I know I've got to be over thinking this. Help me out please.

Offensive players cannot move once they put their hands on the ground they are "married" to the ground.

Players on the end of the line can move after placing a hand on the ground. Players declared as backs can also move.

If a player is in motion at the snap he must be 5 yards behind the LOS.

A player may not move perpendicular to the LOS (Wouldn't this be a false start and not IM though? How could you not blow a movement toward the LOS dead?

If a player in the backfield is set and shuffles a little to the left/right is this act legal?

Is a player set if they are standing motionless and picking their nose?

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Official

Ok I know I've got to be over thinking this. Help me out please.

Offensive players cannot move once they put their hands on the ground they are "married" to the ground.

Once an interior linemen places his hand on or near the ground, he can't lift it.

If a player is in motion at the snap he must be 5 yards behind the LOS.

No. If he's not a back and goes in motion, he must be at least 5 yards behind to LOS.

A player may not move perpendicular to the LOS (Wouldn't this be a false start and not IM though? How could you not blow a movement toward the LOS dead?

He can't be moving toward the LOS when the ball is snapped.

If a player in the backfield is set and shuffles a little to the left/right is this act legal?

Yes.

Is a player set if they are standing motionless and picking their nose?

There's no requirement that the player be motionless. He just has to be set and not making any movement that simulates action at the snap.

[Official]

thanks I truly appreciate it.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

If he's not a back and goes in motion, he must be at least 5 yards behind to LOS.

I think you have to substitute the word "is" for "goes" above. Consider a player who's set just barely in the backfield and goes in motion parallel to the LOS. Suppose that at the snap the closest OL to him has body parts closer to his team's end line than some of his own body parts. He may have been a back when he went in motion, but by getting near that player is no longer a back.

But I doubt any of you would give any more than a warning on this one. Seems if the player is already well along his way in motion, he's not going to confuse the defense as to whether he's on the line or in the backfield, so I think the spirit of the rule is served without att'n to that detail.

[Official]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

There's no requirement that the player be motionless. He just has to be set and not making any movement that simulates action at the snap.

I found this...

After a huddle or shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands, feet, head, or body for at least one second before the snap (7-2-6).

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Official

A player may not move perpendicular to the LOS (Wouldn't this be a false start and not IM though? How could you not blow a movement toward the LOS dead?

So... you've never seen an RB line up, and then go in motion a couple of steps forward first, and then out to the side? Happens all the time, and not IM or False Start - totally legal as long as they are not moving forward AT THE SNAP, and did not simulate the start of the play when he went in motion.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Official

Ok I know I've got to be over thinking this. Help me out please.
Players declared as backs can also move.

A player may not move perpendicular to the LOS (Wouldn't this be a false start and not IM though? How could you not blow a movement toward the LOS dead?

If a player in the backfield is set and shuffles a little to the left/right is this act legal?

Is a player set if they are standing motionless and picking their nose?

Unfortunately (or fortunately) there are no absolutes. Example; a school here uses "motion" a lot. Usually a back, who has been clearly set, will rise deliberately, take one step forward than pivot and go in motion one way or the other. No problem, works well.

At certain times, late in the game, 3 yards to go for an important 1st down, etc. that sequence is repeated with one difference. The back, still clearly set, EXPLODES forward for one step, pivots and goes in motion. No doubt in my mind the intent is to draw the Defense into the NZ for a cheap 5 yard penalty.

If the Defense bites, I'll flag the offense and that sequence will not be repeated. If the defense doesn't bite, I'll decide whether to flag the offense or whisper in the back's ear, after the play, that if he draws the defense into the NZ, I'm going to flag him. Usually that also stops that sequence from being repeated.