Taking A Knee

[SamG]

Speaking as a fan...

Is a 'fake kneel down' play illegal?

If not and a coach tells you they have a fake kneel play during your pre-game meeting, are you going to allow them to run the play at the end of the game?

Which leads to (addressed to the guys who tell the defense a kneel down is coming)...

I *ASSUME* you guys all work the same areas. I further *ASSUME* the players recognize you. So if a team has a fake kneel play, AND tells you they're going to run A play, does your silence to the defense tip off the defense? I'm also assuming players from middle school on up can recognize the victory formation, so they see the victory formation, but the official who's told them every time the offense is going to kneel DOESN'T tell them this time, which means the formation is a fake.

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by SamG

Speaking as a fan...

Is a 'fake kneel down' play illegal?

If not and a coach tells you they have a fake kneel play during your pre-game meeting, are you going to allow them to run the play at the end of the game?

Which leads to (addressed to the guys who tell the defense a kneel down is coming)...

I *ASSUME* you guys all work the same areas. I further *ASSUME* the players recognize you. So if a team has a fake kneel play, AND tells you they're going to run A play, does your silence to the defense tip off the defense? I'm also assuming players from middle school on up can recognize the victory formation, so they see the victory formation, but the official who's told them every time the offense is going to kneel DOESN'T tell them this time, which means the formation is a fake.

It's really splitting hairs and becomes a tough one with this the way it is put. If they take successive kneel downs...I would say the same to the QB or caoch each time to take 2 steps back and go down...reapeatedly until the whistle. Not to mention....running a play after successive kneel downs is incredibly "bush league" and would probably make for an interesting handshake at the end of regulation.

If a team hurries to the line and tells it's players "spike it" or says "hurry up" assuming they will spike the ball to stop the clock, but then throw a pass...you're caught in la la land as an official. You hurry to get the ball set, get your ump or yourself out of the way and let the cards fall where they do. If the team says outright to ME that they are taking a knee....they better take it or there's some laundry coming out. The game is one of deception and sometimes on-field trickery (hook and ladder play, FI), but using the officials in any way would be an immediate foul on my field.

[SamG]

Something else I thought of...

If A is leading as time is running out (whether by 1 or by 50) is there really a reason to run a 'fake kneel'? I'm thinking A's coach will be keeping up with how many TO's team B has, how much time on the clock, etc.

The more appropriate situation would be a TIED game, less than a minute to go. THEN a coach may try a fake... team B thinks A is playing for OT & relaxes, A runs the fake and gets the score/big gain to set up the score.

Which still leads to my question about team B players notice the official ISN'T saying A is taking a knee = A has a play on.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by SamG

Something else I thought of...

If A is leading as time is running out (whether by 1 or by 50) is there really a reason to run a 'fake kneel'? I'm thinking A's coach will be keeping up with how many TO's team B has, how much time on the clock, etc.

The more appropriate situation would be a TIED game, less than a minute to go. THEN a coach may try a fake... team B thinks A is playing for OT & relaxes, A runs the fake and gets the score/big gain to set up the score.

Which still leads to my question about team B players notice the official ISN'T saying A is taking a knee = A has a play on.

I'll tell you EXACTLY how it happened ... or happens.

Team B is completely out of the playoffs. Team A needs to not only win, but win by 8 to win a tiebreaker to make the last slot of the playoffs. A is up by 4 with 30 seconds to go on the B 20. A lines up in victory (and had practiced this all week for EXACTLY this scenario). QB pretends to bobble snap. TE takes one firm step at the snap and pretends to give up on the play, then darts to the right corner as QB throws him the ball - no one on the defense moved.

That one actually happened - I was not there, but we ALL heard about it.

Another plausible scenario would be next year when Team B above plays Team A, and is up by 20 ... and wants payback.

And a far more common possibility would be from your own 40-ish at the end of the HALF. Act like you're taking your 6 pt lead to the locker room, lineup in victory and fake it. This one ACTUALLY happened in the Texas Tech v. Texas game 2 years ago. Unfortunately Mike Leach was unaware that if his QB went toward the ground as if taking a knee, the ball was dead in NCAA. If he'd not have acted as if he was going down, he would have caught Texas completely unaware.

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I'll tell you EXACTLY how it happened ... or happens.

Team B is completely out of the playoffs. Team A needs to not only win, but win by 8 to win a tiebreaker to make the last slot of the playoffs. A is up by 4 with 30 seconds to go on the B 20. A lines up in victory (and had practiced this all week for EXACTLY this scenario). QB pretends to bobble snap. TE takes one firm step at the snap and pretends to give up on the play, then darts to the right corner as QB throws him the ball - no one on the defense moved.

That one actually happened - I was not there, but we ALL heard about it.

Another plausible scenario would be next year when Team B above plays Team A, and is up by 20 ... and wants payback.

And a far more common possibility would be from your own 40-ish at the end of the HALF. Act like you're taking your 6 pt lead to the locker room, lineup in victory and fake it. This one ACTUALLY happened in the Texas Tech v. Texas game 2 years ago. Unfortunately Mike Leach was unaware that if his QB went toward the ground as if taking a knee, the ball was dead in NCAA. If he'd not have acted as if he was going down, he would have caught Texas completely unaware.

The main problem here is that states have points scored as a tiebreaker for making the playoffs...this breeds blowing teams out and poor sportsmanship.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by GoodwillRef

The main problem here is that states have points scored as a tiebreaker for making the playoffs...this breeds blowing teams out and poor sportsmanship.

Maybe true... do you have a better suggestion?

[SamG]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Maybe true... do you have a better suggestion?

Depending on the schedule/# of teams:

#1
Head to head
#2
Vs. Common opponents
#3
Conference pts ALLOWED (lower wins)
#4
Coin flip

[GoodwillRef]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Maybe true... do you have a better suggestion?

Points given up...defense.

We don't use a point system in WI.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by SamG

Speaking as a fan...

Is a 'fake kneel down' play illegal?

Under NCAA rules it is not illegal per se but simulating taking a knee causes the ball to become dead.

Under Fed, there is no prohibition against it.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Under NCAA rules it is not illegal per se but simulating taking a knee causes the ball to become dead.

At what point is the simulation? Victory formation, snap, QB takes two steps back and... if he ducks is that the simulation? I'm not trying to be an a--, I really want to know.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by SamG

At what point is the simulation? Victory formation, snap, QB takes two steps back and... if he ducks is that the simulation? I'm not trying to be an a--, I really want to know.

Yes... any motion toward the ground in a knee situation or formation is what we're told to kill.