Taking A Knee

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by asdf

How is it "coaching", when during the last couple of plays in a 56-6 game you are announcing to the players, "He's taking a knee" ??

That isn't coaching....

Coaching is telling an end in the first quarter ( who is obviously supposed to be off the line, and isn't ) to get back because he's covering up his tight end.

No, but "don't fire off," or "don't hit him" would be.
Also, some would say that the "coaching" example you just gave is a perfect example of "preventive officiating."
In both situations you are trying to keep a player from committing a foul.

[ppaltice]

This thread has ballooned.

My thought is if you are going to tell Team B to play differently because of something Team A told you, you might as well just hold the ball up and end the quarter. Why even go through the motions?

Team B may be holding onto the glimmer of hope that there will be a muffed snap. And in the event that there is a muffed snap, Team B may be handcuffed from the possibility of recovering the loose ball because the officials have interjected themselves into the game.

When Team A tells me they are taking a knee, I tell them that they still have to block, but we will have a fast whistle.

I only talk to Team B if we have had issues leading up to this point that would make me think they would take a cheap shot. But I probably would have already had that discussion prior to the end of the game.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by ppaltice

This thread has ballooned.

My thought is if you are going to tell Team B to play differently because of something Team A told you, you might as well just hold the ball up and end the quarter. Why even go through the motions?

Team B may be holding onto the glimmer of hope that there will be a muffed snap. And in the event that there is a muffed snap, Team B may be handcuffed from the possibility of recovering the loose ball because the officials have interjected themselves into the game.

When Team A tells me they are taking a knee, I tell them that they still have to block, but we will have a fast whistle.

I only talk to Team B if we have had issues leading up to this point that would make me think they would take a cheap shot. But I probably would have already had that discussion prior to the end of the game.

Sometimes there seems to be a breakdown in the understanding of who is responsible for what during a football game. Coaches absolutely deserve our respect and have earned our civility as far as answering, reasonable, questions or clarifying rule matters, but their area of responsibility and control ENDS at the sideline. From there in, it’s our area of control and responsibility and we deserve, and have earned, the respect of those outside the sideline.

Sadly, the place to look for the cause of years of progressive breakdown in some of the behaviors displayed regarding inappropriate interactions from outside the lines may well be in our in OUR own mirrors. When the envelope bursts from the inside, it’s more likely the fault of the envelope, far more often than the inside pressure, because the envelope usually has the power to deflate the pressure long before it builds to the bursting point, and may have chosen to ignore the build up.

The only “absolute” about a football game is that NOTHING is absolute. “One size NEVER fits all”, and never will. Players, coaches and fans share one attribute that officials must never embrace; it's really important and matters to them who is going to win. That competitive edge is a vital, necessary and acceptable part of the game but, unfortunately, at times can cause players, coaches or fans to get carried away and exceed acceptable standards and behavior.

That’s why we’re there; to keep things in balance and insure the rules, and their intent are followed and to insure that whatever pressure builds, it’s kept within acceptable limits. We have been given (almost) absolute authority to accomplish that, and we will be held accountable and responsible for how we dispence that authority.

As for this “taking a knee” question. YOU have to decide what YOU think is appropriate for THAT particular situation, which may be totally different than the last similar situation YOU experienced, much less what might have happened elsewhere with someone else. What players, coaches or fans think should be done about a variety of situations under our control and authority is IRRELEVANT, what matters is how we use the authority we’ve been given to do what WE judge to be appropriate and correct.

It's usually wise to take the opportunity to explain unusual or complicated decisions to sidelines, as long as such discussions can be completed in a civil, respectful manner in both directions.

The other side of the coin giving us all that authority is that we will be held totally responsible for how we apply it. When competitive juices, at times can boil over and adversely affect the rational judgment of others, we (and we alone) are expected and responsible to remain calm, exercise sound judgment and maintain control.

Personally, not that “personally” really matters a lick to anyone but me, but if a Captain or Coach tells me they’re taking a knee (busted plays aside), and the situation calls for taking a knee, there will be no fakes and I am perfectly willing to deal with any consequences my judgments might produce.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

No, but "don't fire off," or "don't hit him" would be.
Also, some would say that the "coaching" example you just gave is a perfect example of "preventive officiating."
In both situations you are trying to keep a player from committing a foul.

It's 56-6 and the team with 56 is telling you, we are not going to try to score anymore.

They are going to be relaxed and vulnerable to injury if we let the defense bust their chops.

Same thing if the team with 6 says "we're done".

You really gonna keep that a secret from the defense and let them blast through at the snap?

If you answer yes... please refer to my prior 2nd grade / 2-man comment, because quite honestly, you don't belong working anywhere else.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by asdf

It's 56-6 and the team with 56 is telling you, we are not going to try to score anymore.

They are going to be relaxed and vulnerable to injury if we let the defense bust their chops.

Same thing if the team with 6 says "we're done".

You really gonna keep that a secret from the defense and let them blast through at the snap?

If you answer yes... please refer to my prior 2nd grade / 2-man comment, because quite honestly, you don't belong working anywhere else.

You seem obsessed with the blowout. This topic (until you brought it in) was not about a blowout. I believe that all of us do understand the difference between kneeling at 56-6 vs 13-12. However, those of us who subscribe to the "If they take a knee, no nonsense" method do not have to change what we do based on the score. JR has already says he does. You have not, so I'll ask - do you give your "He's taking a knee" speech in a 13-12 kneeldown situation?

The problems mentioned with that approach, I think we can all agree, don't exist at 56-6. But at 13-12, telling the defense to play off or not hit ... and/or flagging the offense should they fake it ... BOTH are contrary to the rules and the spirit of the game.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by asdf

It's 56-6 and the team with 56 is telling you, we are not going to try to score anymore.

They are going to be relaxed and vulnerable to injury if we let the defense bust their chops.

Same thing if the team with 6 says "we're done".

You really gonna keep that a secret from the defense and let them blast through at the snap?

If you answer yes... please refer to my prior 2nd grade / 2-man comment, because quite honestly, you don't belong working anywhere else.

Not that I really care what you say or think (I don't) but why am I concerned about whether or not one team or the other is "relaxed and vulnerable to injury?" They know the rules of football, and they better get ready for a hit when the ball is snapped. If you think it's your job to make sure the offense knows that when the ball is snapped they need to protect themselves, then maybe you need to go back down there to kiddie ball and do some offici-coaching. I prefer to stay up here and play with the big boys, thank you.

[asdf]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

Not that I really care what you say or think (I don't) but why am I concerned about whether or not one team or the other is "relaxed and vulnerable to injury?" They know the rules of football, and they better get ready for a hit when the ball is snapped. If you think it's your job to make sure the offense knows that when the ball is snapped they need to protect themselves, then maybe you need to go back down there to kiddie ball and do some offici-coaching. I prefer to stay up here and play with the big boys, thank you.

Now I know where I have seen you officiate...

You are the guy who threw the flag for an illegal shift on the final kneel down play in the 56-6 game I was referring to.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by asdf

Now I know where I have seen you officiate...

You are the guy who threw the flag for an illegal shift on the final kneel down play in the 56-6 game I was referring to.

HA HA HA Now that was funny

[SamG]

Speaking as a fan...

Is a 'fake kneel down' play illegal?

If not and a coach tells you they have a fake kneel play during your pre-game meeting, are you going to allow them to run the play at the end of the game?

Which leads to (addressed to the guys who tell the defense a kneel down is coming)...

I *ASSUME* you guys all work the same areas. I further *ASSUME* the players recognize you. So if a team has a fake kneel play, AND tells you they're going to run A play, does your silence to the defense tip off the defense? I'm also assuming players from middle school on up can recognize the victory formation, so they see the victory formation, but the official who's told them every time the offense is going to kneel DOESN'T tell them this time, which means the formation is a fake.

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by SamG

Speaking as a fan...

Is a 'fake kneel down' play illegal?

If not and a coach tells you they have a fake kneel play during your pre-game meeting, are you going to allow them to run the play at the end of the game?

Which leads to (addressed to the guys who tell the defense a kneel down is coming)...

I *ASSUME* you guys all work the same areas. I further *ASSUME* the players recognize you. So if a team has a fake kneel play, AND tells you they're going to run A play, does your silence to the defense tip off the defense? I'm also assuming players from middle school on up can recognize the victory formation, so they see the victory formation, but the official who's told them every time the offense is going to kneel DOESN'T tell them this time, which means the formation is a fake.

It's really splitting hairs and becomes a tough one with this the way it is put. If they take successive kneel downs...I would say the same to the QB or caoch each time to take 2 steps back and go down...reapeatedly until the whistle. Not to mention....running a play after successive kneel downs is incredibly "bush league" and would probably make for an interesting handshake at the end of regulation.

If a team hurries to the line and tells it's players "spike it" or says "hurry up" assuming they will spike the ball to stop the clock, but then throw a pass...you're caught in la la land as an official. You hurry to get the ball set, get your ump or yourself out of the way and let the cards fall where they do. If the team says outright to ME that they are taking a knee....they better take it or there's some laundry coming out. The game is one of deception and sometimes on-field trickery (hook and ladder play, FI), but using the officials in any way would be an immediate foul on my field.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by SamG

Speaking as a fan...

Is a 'fake kneel down' play illegal?

Under NCAA rules it is not illegal per se but simulating taking a knee causes the ball to become dead.

Under Fed, there is no prohibition against it.