Horsecollar foul

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

I agree with that, except for the fact that apparently this rule is not clear enough to stand on its own. BTW, there are many in the FED book that cannot be applied correctly without added interpretation. That's why they give us a casebook.

Honestly, and I'm not trying to pick on you or start something, it seems to me this rule is completely clear. I think there is often too much reliance on the casebook, and if it's not there, that makes the rule unclear, when in fact the rules are plenty clear. I do recognize that there are SOME places in the FED book (and a few in NCAA too) that the clarification helps... but in 90% of the cases, if you JUST had the rulebook and were faced with the caseplay, you should be able to get the right answer without the casebook. And in THIS case, the rule is pretty cut and dried, and the fact that they put in a few cases without putting in every possible case seems to have actually muddied things for you rather than clarifying them.

I don't have the book in front of me. But if you could paste the rule here and then explain why you read the rule (sans casebook) to say a forward horsecollar is not illegal, maybe I'd have a clearer picture of why you say it's not clear. As of right now, and the last time I read this rule, it seems very clear.

[BroKen62]

I agree with what you are saying, and by the exact wording of the rule and the casebook play, it seems to imply that direction is not a factor. But, when you look at the intent of the rule, it seems highly unlikely that pulling a runner down forward poses very minimal danger of breaking a leg, ankle, etc. Couple that with the powerpoint slide my state association handed out, along with the verbal interpretation, and i quote, "for a horsecollar foul to occur, the player must be pulled down from the side or back," and it seems to me that the intent of the rule was to prevent a backward or sideways pulling down of the runner. Again, I know it's based on assumptions, which is why I say there needs to be further clarification of this rule. If I had not sat in on the state meeting and heard the official interpretation with my own ears, I would agree with you guys 100%.

[JRutledge]

Rulebooks define the rules while the Casebook (or interpretations) tell us how to call under those rules or provide the intent of the rule. That is how it is in all situations and sports. That is why the two books are never alone or separate from each other.

Peace

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Honestly, and I'm not trying to pick on you or start something, it seems to me this rule is completely clear. I think there is often too much reliance on the casebook, and if it's not there, that makes the rule unclear, when in fact the rules are plenty clear. I do recognize that there are SOME places in the FED book (and a few in NCAA too) that the clarification helps... but in 90% of the cases, if you JUST had the rulebook and were faced with the caseplay, you should be able to get the right answer without the casebook. And in THIS case, the rule is pretty cut and dried, and the fact that they put in a few cases without putting in every possible case seems to have actually muddied things for you rather than clarifying them.

I don't have the book in front of me. But if you could paste the rule here and then explain why you read the rule (sans casebook) to say a forward horsecollar is not illegal, maybe I'd have a clearer picture of why you say it's not clear. As of right now, and the last time I read this rule, it seems very clear.

Rule

9-3-4 k

Grab the inside back or side collar of the shoulder pads or jersey of the runner and subsequently pull that opponent to the ground (Horse-collar).

Maybe you could explain how one would pull someone down resulting in a "forward horse collar" using the inside of the back or side collar of the shoulder pads or jersey? I'm no expert, but it seems to me that taking someone down forward with the grip required for a horse collar tackle would require pushing rather than pulling.

[BroKen62]

YouTube - roy williams breaks terrell owens leg

[asdf]

Every presentation I have witnessed that included an interpretation involving the horsecollar rule included one or two NFHS "mechanigrams" that show a large red arrow pointing in a backwards direction and towards the ground.

As stated prior, this is a safety related rule aimed at protecting the knees.

Grabbing the collar and having the runner tackled in a forward direction does not impose the danger to the kness.