Horsecollar foul

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Really? Citation, please. "Pulled down" doesn't specifiy a direction no matter how many times you say it.

And Jeff, I've been very clear in saying that if the result of the person going down is the horse collar it's a foul. Falling means something else entirely. If you're going to claim I have changed my story, it's encumbent on you to cite how I have -- otherwise you're just making that up.

Here's the thread, Jeff: Please tell me where I've changed one thing I've said:

Horsecollar

you want to know why coaches are being told different things from different crews - here's your answer! We can't agree on it ourselves.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Really? Citation, please. "Pulled down" doesn't specifiy a direction no matter how many times you say it.

It's right there in the case play, Rich. But I guess you're going to tell us that if we asked the author of the case book play "What if he's PULLED forward instead of FALLS forward?" the author would say "OH! That's entriely different!"

C'mon Rich. The case play is there to tell us that back/side is a foul, forward isn't a foul, not that pull is a foul but fall isn't.

The whole point of the horse collar rule is that the head/neck are snapped backwards with a horse collar tackle from the side or behind. It's whiplash. There's no snap of the head if he's pulled or falls forward. Further, the NFHS isn't going to ask us to determine whether he fell or was pulled. That's just ludicrous.

Now, if you've been told to call it that way, fine. But that is not the way it's written and I haven't found any other state interp or NFHS interp that agrees with you. So again, no need to sell it here. I don't see anyone buying it. I'm done, we'll just agree to continue to disagree.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Really? Citation, please. "Pulled down" doesn't specifiy a direction no matter how many times you say it.

And Jeff, I've been very clear in saying that if the result of the person going down is the horse collar it's a foul. Falling means something else entirely. If you're going to claim I have changed my story, it's encumbent on you to cite how I have -- otherwise you're just making that up.

Here's the thread, Jeff: Please tell me where I've changed one thing I've said:

Horsecollar

I do not believe I said you changed what you were saying. It just seems to me you are trying to claim something is illegal when there are case plays and interpretations from the NF that are not. Now of course your state or region can advocate something should be illegal despite the interpretations of the NF and that is their right to do so. I am just saying to you that does not fit the NF's purpose of the rule. And in that other discussion you said that you were calling it regardless of another player being apart of the tackle, almost like a face mask penalty. That just does not go along with the interpretations from the NF that last two years. I am not trying to get into the issue with you on Tony; I just think the rules do not support your claims at this time.

Peace

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Really? Citation, please. "Pulled down" doesn't specifiy a direction no matter how many times you say it.

And Jeff, I've been very clear in saying that if the result of the person going down is the horse collar it's a foul. Falling means something else entirely. If you're going to claim I have changed my story, it's encumbent on you to cite how I have -- otherwise you're just making that up.

Here's the thread, Jeff: Please tell me where I've changed one thing I've said:

Horsecollar

Had one on Friday night and had one in a youth game on Saturday.

Both plays were "jersey only" versions of the HC. One (HS) had the ball carrier running down the sideline, was caught from behind by use of HC tackle...easy one.
Second one...kid was running a sweep to the right and was caught by the cornerback on the right side neck opening as he tried cutting back. Ball carrier was taken to the ground, but was able to turn and went down forward, but by the act of the HC tackle. Coach was right on top of it howling the whole way, as you can imagine...and this coach was right. Had a play a week ago where the defender had the back jersey openeing and slipped off, ball carrier did not go down....coach yelled for HC. Explained during the next T.O. that the player was not taken to the ground by the act, and that's the definition. He agreed and we moved on.

The problem alot of us have is working where only the Head Coach needs to attend the rules meetings, leaving their staff, and most times coaches from lower levels, out of the meetings so the complaints and screaming from the sidelines are from coaches who have no clue what the rules are or that they've been revised. Rather impractical, but I would like to see any head coach at any level in high school, required to at least attend the yearly meeting.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Really? Citation, please. "Pulled down" doesn't specifiy a direction no matter how many times you say it.

Your citation can be found in 9-4-3k. It only took two years!

The opponent must be pulled down backward or sideward. Forward is not a HCT.

The rule hasn't changed. It was always supposed to be interpreted this way but thankfully, they've finally clarified it for those who thought "forward" was a foul.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

You can sell that crap all you want to Rich, nobody's buying it here.

Interesting... Try to keep from putting words in everyone else's mouth. "nobody's buying it?" Everyone I know calls it exactly as Rich describes. Please show me what rule you're using to not call a HC on a defender who puts their hand inside a jersey or shoulderpad and pull the ballcarrier immediately down and forward.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Interesting... Try to keep from putting words in everyone else's mouth. "nobody's buying it?" Everyone I know calls it exactly as Rich describes. Please show me what rule you're using to not call a HC on a defender who puts their hand inside a jersey or shoulderpad and pull the ballcarrier immediately down and forward.

Part of the problem is that there is no specific caseplay either way. There is a specific caseplay for backward being a foul and sideways being a foul, but not forward. Conversely, there is no caseplay that says pulling forward is not a foul. IMHO there needs to be clarification one way or the other. I don't think the absence of a caseplay supports either case. I can't hang my hat (although i want to) on the fact that because falling forward is legal, pulling forward is legal as well. But Rich, you can't hang your hat on the notion that just because pulling forward is not in the casebook, it must be a foul because "direction doesn't matter," when clearly in the FED powerpoint interpretations they say it is. Because of the lack of specific wording in the rule or casebook, all we have to go on is the "official" interpretation of the guys in charge, and as you can see from this thread and the last, there is a wide variety of interps out there. JM2CW.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

Yesterday afternoon, we had a horsecollar foul with a runner brought down by a lone defender -- brought down with a hand inside the back collar. There were three flags on the play -- from the line judge, umpire, and back judge.

Setting aside the likely mechanical issue of having 60% of the officials looking at the tackle, it was clearly a foul.

However, we had a lot of screaming from the defensive sideline, so much so that I walked over there momentarily. They were upset because a crew told them just 2 weeks ago that "the hand has to be inside the pads" for it to be a horsecollar foul. I told the coach there was no such requirement in HS football and he started in with the "why does one crew tell me one thing...." stuff.

I asked this question weeks ago, but I'll ask it again. Why will some officials go to such extreme lengths to avoid throwing flags?

I wouldn't be so quick to blame the previous crew for what the coach alleges they said. For all you know the play two weeks ago involved a defender grabbing a handful of jersey and pulling the runner down.