Horsecollar foul

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

You can sell that crap all you want to Rich, nobody's buying it here.

Interesting... Try to keep from putting words in everyone else's mouth. "nobody's buying it?" Everyone I know calls it exactly as Rich describes. Please show me what rule you're using to not call a HC on a defender who puts their hand inside a jersey or shoulderpad and pull the ballcarrier immediately down and forward.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Interesting... Try to keep from putting words in everyone else's mouth. "nobody's buying it?" Everyone I know calls it exactly as Rich describes. Please show me what rule you're using to not call a HC on a defender who puts their hand inside a jersey or shoulderpad and pull the ballcarrier immediately down and forward.

Part of the problem is that there is no specific caseplay either way. There is a specific caseplay for backward being a foul and sideways being a foul, but not forward. Conversely, there is no caseplay that says pulling forward is not a foul. IMHO there needs to be clarification one way or the other. I don't think the absence of a caseplay supports either case. I can't hang my hat (although i want to) on the fact that because falling forward is legal, pulling forward is legal as well. But Rich, you can't hang your hat on the notion that just because pulling forward is not in the casebook, it must be a foul because "direction doesn't matter," when clearly in the FED powerpoint interpretations they say it is. Because of the lack of specific wording in the rule or casebook, all we have to go on is the "official" interpretation of the guys in charge, and as you can see from this thread and the last, there is a wide variety of interps out there. JM2CW.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

Part of the problem is that there is no specific caseplay either way. There is a specific caseplay for backward being a foul and sideways being a foul, but not forward. Conversely, there is no caseplay that says pulling forward is not a foul. IMHO there needs to be clarification one way or the other. I don't think the absence of a caseplay supports either case. I can't hang my hat (although i want to) on the fact that because falling forward is legal, pulling forward is legal as well. But Rich, you can't hang your hat on the notion that just because pulling forward is not in the casebook, it must be a foul because "direction doesn't matter," when clearly in the FED powerpoint interpretations they say it is. Because of the lack of specific wording in the rule or casebook, all we have to go on is the "official" interpretation of the guys in charge, and as you can see from this thread and the last, there is a wide variety of interps out there. JM2CW.

I guess if we wanted to, we could use the actual words from the actual rule. Maybe that's just me.

[BroKen62]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I guess if we wanted to, we could use the actual words from the actual rule. Maybe that's just me.

I agree with that, except for the fact that apparently this rule is not clear enough to stand on its own. BTW, there are many in the FED book that cannot be applied correctly without added interpretation. That's why they give us a casebook.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by BroKen62

I agree with that, except for the fact that apparently this rule is not clear enough to stand on its own. BTW, there are many in the FED book that cannot be applied correctly without added interpretation. That's why they give us a casebook.

Honestly, and I'm not trying to pick on you or start something, it seems to me this rule is completely clear. I think there is often too much reliance on the casebook, and if it's not there, that makes the rule unclear, when in fact the rules are plenty clear. I do recognize that there are SOME places in the FED book (and a few in NCAA too) that the clarification helps... but in 90% of the cases, if you JUST had the rulebook and were faced with the caseplay, you should be able to get the right answer without the casebook. And in THIS case, the rule is pretty cut and dried, and the fact that they put in a few cases without putting in every possible case seems to have actually muddied things for you rather than clarifying them.

I don't have the book in front of me. But if you could paste the rule here and then explain why you read the rule (sans casebook) to say a forward horsecollar is not illegal, maybe I'd have a clearer picture of why you say it's not clear. As of right now, and the last time I read this rule, it seems very clear.

[BroKen62]

I agree with what you are saying, and by the exact wording of the rule and the casebook play, it seems to imply that direction is not a factor. But, when you look at the intent of the rule, it seems highly unlikely that pulling a runner down forward poses very minimal danger of breaking a leg, ankle, etc. Couple that with the powerpoint slide my state association handed out, along with the verbal interpretation, and i quote, "for a horsecollar foul to occur, the player must be pulled down from the side or back," and it seems to me that the intent of the rule was to prevent a backward or sideways pulling down of the runner. Again, I know it's based on assumptions, which is why I say there needs to be further clarification of this rule. If I had not sat in on the state meeting and heard the official interpretation with my own ears, I would agree with you guys 100%.

[JRutledge]

Rulebooks define the rules while the Casebook (or interpretations) tell us how to call under those rules or provide the intent of the rule. That is how it is in all situations and sports. That is why the two books are never alone or separate from each other.

Peace

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Honestly, and I'm not trying to pick on you or start something, it seems to me this rule is completely clear. I think there is often too much reliance on the casebook, and if it's not there, that makes the rule unclear, when in fact the rules are plenty clear. I do recognize that there are SOME places in the FED book (and a few in NCAA too) that the clarification helps... but in 90% of the cases, if you JUST had the rulebook and were faced with the caseplay, you should be able to get the right answer without the casebook. And in THIS case, the rule is pretty cut and dried, and the fact that they put in a few cases without putting in every possible case seems to have actually muddied things for you rather than clarifying them.

I don't have the book in front of me. But if you could paste the rule here and then explain why you read the rule (sans casebook) to say a forward horsecollar is not illegal, maybe I'd have a clearer picture of why you say it's not clear. As of right now, and the last time I read this rule, it seems very clear.

Rule

9-3-4 k

Grab the inside back or side collar of the shoulder pads or jersey of the runner and subsequently pull that opponent to the ground (Horse-collar).

Maybe you could explain how one would pull someone down resulting in a "forward horse collar" using the inside of the back or side collar of the shoulder pads or jersey? I'm no expert, but it seems to me that taking someone down forward with the grip required for a horse collar tackle would require pushing rather than pulling.

[BroKen62]

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