Bean Bag discussion on Kicks

[BoBo]

So I would to hear some opinions or a civil discussion in regards to bean bags and scrimmage kicks (punts)

1. We/BJ are now using a white bean bag to indicate the end of the kick and also first touching by K. (My BJ is the only one carrying two colors.)

2. We/BJ are using a blue bag for any fumbles on kicks and any other fumbles on a scrimmage play and free kick.

For punts we understand how important first touching is thus why by rule we drop a bag at that point for reference. In addition the same goes for the end of the kick for PSK enforcement if needed.

The question that has come up in our circles is what should we do if anything when R muffs a punt or has a punt hit them by mistake thus creating a free ball?

Do you currently drop a bag to recognize that R has touched the ball? I know this touching point means absolutely zero as far as reference point. In addition I am aware we can not advance the muff or touch also.

The play in question is ball comes down hits the ground and bounces towards R goal line. As it rolls it just grazes R. K not sure if it has touched has to decide to recover the ball asap and hope that it did touch R or let the ball continue to roll towards R goal line hoping to pin them even deeper. With this scenario do they now risk the chance of R recovering the ball and maintaining the possession.

People here think we should maybe bag the muff so if K is aware of the officials mechanic they are aware it is a loose ball.

I know it is not a mechanic at any level that I am aware of but should it be??

Just interested in what others think and would like to hear some feed back.

Sorry so long in the explanation.

Hope everyone has a great Friday night!

[Eastshire]

It seems to me that K isn't going to be on the look out for a bean bag to make this decision even if you were to adopt this as a mechanic.

Further, it seems to me to be more like coaching than officiating to tell K, "Hey, get the ball. You can keep it."

Just my 2 cents.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by BoBo

The question that has come up in our circles is what should we do if anything when R muffs a punt or has a punt hit them by mistake thus creating a free ball?

Bagging a muff is an incorrect mechanic: it's not needed to spot the ball (like first touching) or for penalty enforcement (like the end of the kick).

So option 1 would be: do nothing. Some don't like that option because it seems we should do something here.

In my association many back judges use another option: they signal "tip," the way the U does when a pass is tipped at the line of scrimmage. That signals the touch to anyone looking, but avoids the use of the beanbag.

[MD Longhorn]

I make it a point to bring 4 beanbags, just in case. I also wear 2 hats and keep an extra in my pocket - and I make sure my right shoe can be removed quickly if necessary. You should see how accurate I can be flinging my shoe with my leg every time I need a 8th spot marked. Takes practice, but it sure is worth it!

[JRutledge]

You only need to bean bag three things on a kick.

1. First touching,
2. End of kick (scrimmage)
3. End of the related run if the ball is fumbled.

No need to bean bag a touch by R as it will be obvious to most players the ball has been touched. Also the spot means nothing as the kick is going to still be a kick and someone will have to recover the ball. And then rule who gets the ball. You will run out of bean bags if you do that every time it happens. At least that is my opinion.

Peace

[JRod37]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I make it a point to bring 4 beanbags, just in case. I also wear 2 hats and keep an extra in my pocket - and I make sure my right shoe can be removed quickly if necessary. You should see how accurate I can be flinging my shoe with my leg every time I need a 8th spot marked. Takes practice, but it sure is worth it!

Apparently you missed the request in the OP for a civil discussion.

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by JRod37

Apparently you missed the request in the OP for a civil discussion.

Agreed...this reminds me of the pre fight weigh-in at a boxing match. You know there's going to be somebody stirring the pot.

[bisonlj]

Or you could do what I did in a JV game working umpire. It was a short kick and I didn't realize it. After I pivoted, the ball came down and hit me in the shoulder. After it bounced on the ground it hit an R player in the leg. I reacted by dropping my flag (yes, that yellow thing in my waist) at the spot. Realizing that was the wrong thing to, before jumping into the pile for the recovery I picked up my flag and rather than leaving well enough alone, I dropped my bean bag at the spot instead. Why?!?!

K recovered the ball and to make it more interesting, the R had a flag for roughign the punter. Now K has a decision to make. Add 15 yards to the previous spot or take the ball where they recovered it. That would require knowlege of the previous spot. Guess what happened? Yup...look to the sideline and there's the box man standing with a 1 on the box at the spot of recovery. Crap! Mr. Box Man, do you remember where the previous line of scrimmage was? He moved back several yards and picks a spot so we go with it. It was better for K to take the penalty from that spot rather than the spot of recovery.

As I'm going back to the hash where the ball was snapped I pick up my bean bag and realize it's at the same yard line as the box. If that's where the ball hit R it was about the same yard line where I was standing at the snap which had to be at least 8 yards beyond the LOS. The bean bag actually did serve a purpose. It told me (and only me) that we were definitely wrong on the enforcement spot.

As confidently as I could, I marched off the penalty from there, put it down and we moved on. It was a blow out late in a JV game on a Saturday morning and I had screwed up bad enough already. Chalk it up as a learning experience and move on.

As for the OP, I definitely don't think you should bag the spot of touching by R. I "tip" signal would be fine but it's usually pretty obvious if R touches it. Otherwise anyone can possess it regardless and your signal one way or the other will after the play will tell everyone if you had touching.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I make it a point to bring 4 beanbags, just in case. I also wear 2 hats and keep an extra in my pocket - and I make sure my right shoe can be removed quickly if necessary. You should see how accurate I can be flinging my shoe with my leg every time I need a 8th spot marked. Takes practice, but it sure is worth it!

I made a belt out of beanbags. That way, I can just grab one of the 12 beanbags when I need it. Unfortunately, then the others fall off onto the ground and my pants fall down.

It's a work in progress.

[ppaltice]

I prefer to referee and let the back judges determine what article of clothing needs to be dispersed where.

[With_Two_Flakes]

If he muffs it, I like my BJ to always give a tipped signal. If others see it and realise it is a free ball then that's great, but IMHO that isn't the main reason for doing it. Giving the signal helps program the BJ's own mind that K can now recover the ball.
A real bonus for me as the official on the sideline (or White Hat if a coach's conference ensues) is that it helps me sell the call and makes for quite short conversations with a coach.

Coach: "He never touched it!"
Official (demonstrating S11): "Coach, did you see the covering official give this signal?"
Coach: "Yes."
Official: "Then he touched it. Anything else I can help you with?"

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRod37

Apparently you missed the request in the OP for a civil discussion.

Mmmmm. Sorry. (Who was I being uncivil with in my statement, exactly?) Just trying to make light of the previous craziness... not being un-civil. Promise.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by richmsn

i made a belt out of beanbags. That way, i can just grab one of the 12 beanbags when i need it. Unfortunately, then the others fall off onto the ground and my pants fall down.

It's a work in progress.

lol. +1

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Mmmmm. Sorry. (Who was I being uncivil with in my statement, exactly?) Just trying to make light of the previous craziness... not being un-civil. Promise.

You forgot the sarcasm tags! I got it.

[Canned Heat]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I made a belt out of beanbags. That way, I can just grab one of the 12 beanbags when I need it. Unfortunately, then the others fall off onto the ground and my pants fall down.

It's a work in progress.

Me too!!

It's like those candy necklaces the kids get, you break off one as you need it. Kind of like a Pez dispenser with elastic.

Good stuff. Thanks for the laugh.

Soon to be off for my 2 hour drive to West DePere for tonight's game. If you remember, Rich, I live in West Bend. I don't know why we agree to these games....yikes. Best part is...we have one in Door County in 3 weeks...and one of the guys comes from Oak Creek!!