Punt Near Endzone

[bisonlj]

Let's try this again and not worry about bean bags, hats, shoes or anything else. Pretend this was a test question. How would you answer it?

Scrimmage kick and ball first touched by K22 at the R1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K40 at the R4, rolls to the R2 and is possessed by K33 there.

Where is R going to next snap the ball?
R1
R2
R4

If you say R2, you are ignoring the first touching that also occurred at the R4. If you say that's not first touching then you are ignoring the part of the rule that states any touching by K before R touches it is first touching.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Let's try this again and not worry about bean bags, hats, shoes or anything else. Pretend this was a test question. How would you answer it?

Scrimmage kick and ball first touched by K22 at the R1, tapped backward to keep it from going into the EZ, touched again by K40 at the R4, rolls to the R2 and is possessed by K33 there.

Where is R going to next snap the ball?
R1
R2
R4

If you say R2, you are ignoring the first touching that also occurred at the R4. If you say that's not first touching then you are ignoring the part of the rule that states any touching by K before R touches it is first touching.

You do not agree with me, but you want me to take a test from you? You really have an inflated sense of yourself or what this site really means to people on this site. The entertainment never stops.

Peace

[Rich]

I don't understand. Please help me understand what you are doing on this play......

Are you throwing a bag at the 1 and then once the touch at the 4 happens picking your bag up at the one and dropping it at the four? Are you simply getting the spot at the 4 without a bag?

I'm mainly a WH, so my bag rarely (if ever) comes off my belt (I had a momentum exception on a kickoff earlier this year, the only time I needed my bag). It is my understanding of the relevant rules that you need *every* first touching spot because R gets its choice of any of them. You also need the end of the kick. I understand that practically only one of the first touching spots will ever be used, but you certainly *need* the one at the four on this play, don't you?

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I don't understand. Please help me understand what you are doing on this play......

Are you throwing a bag at the 1 and then once the touch at the 4 happens picking your bag up at the one and dropping it at the four? Are you simply getting the spot at the 4 without a bag?

I'm mainly a WH, so my bag rarely (if ever) comes off my belt (I had a momentum exception on a kickoff earlier this year, the only time I needed my bag). It is my understanding of the relevant rules that you need *every* first touching spot because R gets its choice of any of them. You also need the end of the kick. I understand that practically only one of the first touching spots will ever be used, but you certainly *need* the one at the four on this play, don't you?

You are correct Rich. If the time between the touching at the 1 and 4 is short and you aren't in too much of a hurry, you might only get the bag down at the 4. If you had already dropped it at the 1 and then it was touched again at the 4, you would either drop a second bag or move your first bag after the play. I've typically heard to get a bag down at each spot of first touching but that isn't always practical or logical. For example, if K touched it at the 20 and again at the 16 and 14, there is no reason to have bags at the 16 and 14. The key is to make sure you somehow have the 4 spotted in a play like this.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

For example, if K touched it at the 20 and again at the 16 and 14, there is no reason to have bags at the 16 and 14. The key is to make sure you somehow have the 4 spotted in a play like this.

So are you saying you are going to have a hard time figuring out to put the ball at the 20?

Peace

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So are you saying you are going to have a hard time figuring out to put the ball at the 20?

Peace

Nope...that one goes at the 20 because it is the best spot of first touching for R. It doesn't take away the fact the 14 and 16 are also spots of first touching but you probably don't need to bag them because R is not likely to take the ball at those spots.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

Nope...that one goes at the 20 because it is the best spot of first touching for R. It doesn't take away the fact the 14 and 16 are also spots of first touching but you probably don't need to bag them because R is not likely to take the ball at those spots.

You ask which spot they want? Really?

Peace

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You do not agree with me, but you want me to take a test from you? You really have an inflated sense of yourself or what this site really means to people on this site. The entertainment never stops.

Peace

I'm trying to see if we do agree but are saying it different ways. If I'm reading between the lines I think you may give R the ball at the R4 but wouldn't have bean bags at every spot.

I'm a very humble person because I know I have a lot to learn and I make mistakes on the field and in my understanding of the rules all the time. I see a fellow official who I guess does an excellent job on the field and understands the rules and philosophies better than most.

If you are saying R would get the ball at the R2 in this play then you are wrong. This is not a judgment issue or a philosophy issue. The rule is very clear that R will get the ball at the R4 and I think you'll find others agree.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

I'm trying to see if we do agree but are saying it different ways. If I'm reading between the lines I think you may give R the ball at the R4 but wouldn't have bean bags at every spot.

I'm a very humble person because I know I have a lot to learn and I make mistakes on the field and in my understanding of the rules all the time. I see a fellow official who I guess does an excellent job on the field and understands the rules and philosophies better than most.

If you are saying R would get the ball at the R2 in this play then you are wrong. This is not a judgment issue or a philosophy issue. The rule is very clear that R will get the ball at the R4 and I think you'll find others agree.

But why do you care? You have already told me I do not know what I am doing. And you obviously do not know the way my job is respected on the field. Now we might disagree, but I see no need to continue to prove to you what I know or do not know. You think I am clueless and I am fine with that. What I have done on the field speaks for itself. And the OP still has not come back to dispute a single thing said either way. I told you what I was looking for and what I am going to do. Then you and others want to play games with the rules as if that is really the main thing we are talking about. I think I will go with my three fellow football clinicians on my crew and what they expect me to do. They have never told me to bean bag every single spot that is considered a first touch. It is OK if you do things differently in your parts. BTW, this has nothing to do with the rule; this has to do with the mechanic I am going to use.

Peace

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

But why do you care? You have already told me I do not know what I am doing. And you obviously do not know the way my job is respected on the field. Now we might disagree, but I see no need to continue to prove to you what I know or do not know. You think I am clueless and I am fine with that. What I have done on the field speaks for itself. And the OP still has not come back to dispute a single thing said either way. I told you what I was looking for and what I am going to do. Then you and others want to play games with the rules as if that is really the main thing we are talking about. I think I will go with my three fellow football clinicians on my crew and what they expect me to do. They have never told me to bean bag every single spot that is considered a first touch. It is OK if you do things differently in your parts. BTW, this has nothing to do with the rule; this has to do with the mechanic I am going to use.

Peace

We moved past the OP about 3 pages ago. Why you keep bringing it up is a mystery. You are obviously not going to answer the question - answering it correctly will show you to be incorrect for 3 pages of discussion, answering it again with your same wrong response will merely show you to not know your rules. I KNOW, with near certainty, that we will not get an answer from you. You dodge and dodge, because you, sir, are simply wrong. Your posturing and attacking doesn't change that.

I'm sure it doesn't concern you at all - your ego is big enough that it won't matter, but I'm sure there are several on here who previously respected your posts and felt you were a rather knowledgeable and helpful poster here, and who no longer feel that way at all. I include myself in that group. Defending a clearly wrong position, and refusing to admit you simply made a mistake way back 3 pages ago have cost you a lot of credibility.

But again - your opinion of you FAR supercedes ours, so I'm sure you don't care. I do know that several will now read your responses with considerably more than a bucket of salt.

PS - "Everybody" in my previous post referred to EVERYBODY, except you, who is participating in this discussion. And you who have so much disdain for the use of a hat - what would you use if you ran out of bags? Sorry coach ... didn't get that spot because I think dropping my hat looks silly.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

We moved past the OP about 3 pages ago. Why you keep bringing it up is a mystery. You are obviously not going to answer the question - answering it correctly will show you to be incorrect for 3 pages of discussion, answering it again with your same wrong response will merely show you to not know your rules. I KNOW, with near certainty, that we will not get an answer from you. You dodge and dodge, because you, sir, are simply wrong. Your posturing and attacking doesn't change that.

It was the premise the question was answered on my behalf. That might not be important to you, but that is important to me.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I'm sure it doesn't concern you at all - your ego is big enough that it won't matter, but I'm sure there are several on here who previously respected your posts and felt you were a rather knowledgeable and helpful poster here, and who no longer feel that way at all. I include myself in that group. Defending a clearly wrong position, and refusing to admit you simply made a mistake way back 3 pages ago have cost you a lot of credibility.

Well we all have an ego. If you had the right ego in my opinion, you would accept your take on this and move on. But for some reason you want me to verify what you already think. And yes I have an ego, this is why I have done the things I have done and for the period of time I have. Of course I have an ego and I am going to do what I feel is best based on my training and experience. You even claimed you have no experience at the NF level, but my ego is at issue? Maybe if you had your ego in check you would accept that I have done this longer than you have and do what works.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

But again - your opinion of you FAR supercedes ours, so I'm sure you don't care. I do know that several will now read your responses with considerably more than a bucket of salt.

I did not say my opinion is all that matters. I did not even try to keep score as to who agreed with me or not. I said I told you what "I" am going to do. You do what works for you. If you want to throw 80 bean bags for every touch that is your right. But I find it odd that most people here have always advocated only having a couple of bean bags (even in a recent conversation) and all of a sudden 4 bean bags are to come out for each first touching spot. Based on what "everyone" has said here before, that would not work as they would lose one of the spots if that was an expectation.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

PS - "Everybody" in my previous post referred to EVERYBODY, except you, who is participating in this discussion. And you who have so much disdain for the use of a hat - what would you use if you ran out of bags? Sorry coach ... didn't get that spot because I think dropping my hat looks silly.

I love how you change the discussion from what I said about the hat. I said "we" (meaning our mechanics and philosophy in the area I live and certainly on my crew) stopped using the hat for stuff long time ago. And certainly throw a hat not for a spot of all things. Even if we have a player that goes out of bounds, we do not use the hat for that either. And since you are so worried about coaches, I have never had a coach argue with me or anyone about a first touching spot and a dead ball spot. NEVER!!!! Now that is in 15 years of varsity football and multiple playoff opportunities when they really get heated about stuff. I have heard a lot of complaints, but never an issue with where a spot is marked for first touching. And like I said before, the dead ball spot and the first touching spot is often very obvious from each other. I do not worry about the boogie man that is under the bed because someone on an internet site thinks I should worry about those things. This is not my first rodeo.

Peace

[Just Me]

Guys....give it up. You will NEVER get him to admit he was wrong.