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That's what I'd say about the player of R standing out of bounds who touches a rolling free kick to make it out of bounds, based on a broad reading of "participate" (taking the provision on "illegal participation" implicitly defining "participate" as non-exhaustive) even though he didn't "return". However, I'd have a hard time considering it illegal participation for a player who'd just stepped over the sideline and jumped for the ball. Seems to me the spirit of the rule against illegal participation requires a player deliberately try to take advantage of going out of bounds.
Last edited by Robert Goodman; Fri Aug 13, 2010 at 10:43am. |
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The IP rule in general is harsh in dealing with Team A players that have unintentionally stepped out of bounds. A receiver that is one step out of bounds and returns has committed IP and that is what the Fed wants so calling the OP IP is consistent with other situations. This is why I like the NCAA rule better.
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Even if you’re on the right track, you’ll get run over if you just sit there. - Will Rogers Last edited by Welpe; Fri Aug 13, 2010 at 11:15am. |
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Despite this, AJ wants to rule that a ball that has not gone out of bounds is dead. That's against the spirit of the rules. As to strange consequences, I don't see them. What's strange about calling a penalty? |
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But would you not consider a receiver that jumps in the air and intentionally throws it or bats it to another player to be "deliberately trying to take advantage of going out of bounds?"
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I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'” West Houston Mike |
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I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'” West Houston Mike |
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I believe that by rule this play is neither IP or incomplete. It's an odd loophole in the rule for a situation that is almost unlikely to ever occur! If you are going to call this IP, you are also going to call the following play an IP:
A80, while in his route, steps on the sideline and leaps for a pass. He catches it while airborn and lands (a) out of bounds or (b) in bounds. If you are in the incomplete pass camp for the first play, you have to rule incomplete only for both of these plays as well. If you are in the IP camp, you would rule IP for both of these plays as well. I think most officials would agree (a) is just an incomplete pass and (b) could be correctly ruled IP but some would probably just rule incomplete. If a coach is going to intentionally run a play that involves a receiver touching out of bounds, leaping, catching and throwing or batting the ball to a teammate SUCCESSFULLY, and having that receiver do anything with it from there is probably not going to be coaching very long. If they pull this off, I think it's still a live ball with no fouls. The case play Welpe used was from a few years ago and we don't know if it was removed to make space or because it's no longer a valid interpretation. Regardless, this play is probably never going to happen so what's the point getting so emotional about it? Go with your own opinions and move on. |
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I have no interest in NCAA rules. As I understand Illegal Participation, on the NFHS level, I'm looking at NF: 9-6-1 & 2 which clearly state the conditions under which a player comits this foul, which requires not only going OOB, but returning. The mechanic used in our area, to focus on that required sequence, calls for a beanbag to be thrown when an A (or K) player crosses the line and a flag when he crosses back inbounds (See "Comment" Case Book 9.6.1.A) I don't see how a player who has completed all the requirements of being OOB can violate any provision of NF: 9-6, without "returning inbounds", nor do I understand how a player can magically satisfy the requirement of "returning inbounds" by simply jumping up into the air while remaining outside the playing field boundries. If I've confused you, Mike, allow me to try and clarify. Since the action by A88 (in the ridiculous sample play) does NOT qualify for either Illegal Participation or Illegal Touching (under NFHS Illegal Touching is something an ineligible receiver does), the result of the play (redirecting the live ball back across the sideline to an inbounds teammate who advances across the goal line), the result of the play MUST be a TD, because there's no reason for it not to be. You seem to agree that allowing this score to stand DOESN'T MAKE SENSE, but I don't see how or why you can prevent that without considering the ball dead when touched OOB by your airborne, OOB A88. If you insist the ball remains alive, and admit that no penalty has been committed, NF: 8-2-1 "Possession of a live ball in the opponent's End Zone is always a touchdown." takes over. This does get to be a confusing string as some insist on twisting the original question to try and support their position. Mike, if you would read what I've said, instead of assuming what you thought I meant to say, it might seem clearer and easier to follow. My position is relatively simple, due to the absence of any foul being committed by A88, the play has to stand, or for some reason, fail to stand. Interpreting the touching by A88 to have been by an OOB player, even though he is not consistently touching the ground, which seems a reasonable interpretation, provides the appropriate ruling. There's no flag on the ground, because nobody has earned one, and we can move on. |
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I recognize that you're trying to throw me an olive branch here ... and I hate to crush it. But OMFG. No - we're not in agreement, not at all. Yes. I have. Suggested it's IP. Not suggested, stated. It's Illegal freaking participation. How can you read what I just wrote and think otherwise? Goodness, you even quoted IN YOUR POST, and then BOLDED it - where I say "it is IP". Kind of renders the rest of your post moot wrt what I'm saying. Literally Freaking Stunned.
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I was thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said, 'I drank what?'” West Houston Mike Last edited by MD Longhorn; Fri Aug 13, 2010 at 04:27pm. |
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I despair to hope that this makes a lick of difference, but once more into the breach.
Please actually read the rules cited this time. Stop assuming you know what they say and actually read them. Reread 9-6-2. It does not say return to the field. It says returns. Answer this question: When A88 jumps in the air, is he touching OOB? The answer is no. Since he is not touching OOB he does not meet the definition of being OOB to wit "A player or other person is out of bounds when any part of the person is touching anything, other than another player or game official that is on or outside the sideline or end line." By definition (although I grant you it's the Fed's definition, not yours) the player is not OOB. If he's not OOB but he was OOB, he has returned. I will grant you that he has not returned to the field but that is not relevant to 9-6-2. The ball is therefore not OOB when he touches it as it has not touched an OOB player (2-29-3) because the player is not touching OOB (2-29-1). By touching the pass, A88 has participated (2-30). Since he intentionally went OOB but is no longer OOB (thus returned), his participation is illegal (9-6-2). It's really quite simple (and I dare say not that controversial) if you actually read the rules. |
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You know, where the ball hits the baton thrown up by the baton twirler and rebounds into the field. Or where it's 4th down and team A sends a couple receivers well and clearly beyond the end line to jump and bat an overthrown ball back (which their receiver in the end zone had a shot at, but missed) so that team B needs to accept the penalty and repeat the down to avoid giving up a TD. Or where a receiver nicks the sideline with his foot while jumping and catching the ball.
Last edited by Robert Goodman; Fri Aug 13, 2010 at 08:58pm. |
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I don't believe any of you arguing for this position would even try to call this consistently. In the ordinary case where the ball or player holding it just lands out of bounds, you would rule on the spirit of the rule, as ajmc calls for explicitly, and call it a dead ball and no foul. The only reason you'd call it IP would be to save the other team from its being a completed pass in some of the extreme cases discussed here. And that's just hypocrisy. Yeah, we know how the literal rules read. We know how a partly applicable case was stated in an interpretations book. But I don't believe a bit of it. |
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