Illegal Touching enforcement question

[kfo9494]

Got a question about enforcement--

Third down for Team A on their 30 yard line when A1 throws a pass to A8 who is ineligible reciever. A8 catches the ball (a)behind the line at the 25 yard line and advances for an apparent TD; (b) beyond the line at the 35 yard line and advances for an apparent TD.

Question--
in (a) is the penalty enforced from the 25 yard line since it was behind the line of scrimmage (basic spot)?
in (b) is the penalty enforced from the previous spot which was the 30 yard line?
and carries 5 yards and loss of down?
>
Thanks

[Welpe]

Question--
in (a) is the penalty enforced from the 25 yard line since it was behind the line of scrimmage (basic spot)?

Correct. Foul is behind the basic spot, penalty is enforced from there.

in (b) is the penalty enforced from the previous spot which was the 30 yard line?
and carries 5 yards and loss of down?
>
Thanks

Correct. Basic spot is the previous spot, foul occurred in advance of the basic spot.

Also correct that it is 5 yards and a loss of down.

[mbyron]

You've got it right.

We have a legal forward pass per 7-5-2, so the foul occurs during a loose ball play. That means that the basic spot is the previous spot under all but one.

In (a) the foul occurs behind the basic spot, so the penalty will be enforced from the spot of the foul under all but one. In (b) the foul occurs beyond the basic spot, so the penalty will be enforced from the basic spot.

The penalty is, as you've stated, 5 yards plus loss of down. In (b) you also have an ineligible downfield, but the flag should be for illegal touching, which carries a loss of down penalty.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by mbyron

In (b) you also have an ineligible downfield, but the flag should be for illegal touching, which carries a loss of down penalty.

Not necessarily. A8 could be ineligible because he went out of bounds and came back - but in that case is not an ineligble player downfield. Also, not sure on Fed, but if the player is behind the LOS when the pass is released, then catches it 5 yards downfield, you don't have ineligible downfield, do you? (Not that it matters, for the reason you stated).

PS - I'd have a flag down for both... one immediately when the ball crossed the neutral zone - another when it touched him. And I'd report both fouls. Agreed that it doesn't matter, but we've been told multiple times to flag multiple fouls where we have multiple fouls, with the exception of simultaneous offsetting fouls (1 flag on 2 guys punching each other for example) or simultaneous at-the-snap fouls (two defenders in the neutral zone, or 1 defender and illegal formation or motion).

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Not necessarily. A8 could be ineligible because he went out of bounds and came back - but in that case is not an ineligble player downfield.

True in NCAA but not in Fed. In Fed, an originally eligible player never loses his eligibility. An A Team player that steps out and returns is guilty of illegal participation.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by kfo9494

Got a question about enforcement--

Third down for Team A on their 30 yard line when A1 throws a pass to A8 who is ineligible reciever. A8 catches the ball (a)behind the line at the 25 yard line and advances for an apparent TD; (b) beyond the line at the 35 yard line and advances for an apparent TD.

Question--
in (a) is the penalty enforced from the 25 yard line since it was behind the line of scrimmage (basic spot)?
in (b) is the penalty enforced from the previous spot which was the 30 yard line?
and carries 5 yards and loss of down?
>
Thanks

CANADIAN RULING:

Illegal forward pass is 10 yards from LS, repeat the down, or option to decline.

[patalia]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Not necessarily. A8 could be ineligible because he went out of bounds and came back - but in that case is not an ineligble player downfield. Also, not sure on Fed, but if the player is behind the LOS when the pass is released, then catches it 5 yards downfield, you don't have ineligible downfield, do you? (Not that it matters, for the reason you stated).

PS - I'd have a flag down for both... one immediately when the ball crossed the neutral zone - another when it touched him. And I'd report both fouls. Agreed that it doesn't matter, but we've been told multiple times to flag multiple fouls where we have multiple fouls, with the exception of simultaneous offsetting fouls (1 flag on 2 guys punching each other for example) or simultaneous at-the-snap fouls (two defenders in the neutral zone, or 1 defender and illegal formation or motion).

If I am not mistaken, running out of bounds does NOT make the receiver ineligible. Players that are eligible at the beginning of the down remain eligible throughout the down. This player that ran out of bounds would be guilty of illegal participation if he were the first to touch the forward pass, not illegal touching. Therefore, the A8 player must have been ineligible by position as his jersey number is legal.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by patalia

This player that ran out of bounds would be guilty of illegal participation if he were the first to touch the forward pass, not illegal touching.

The player would be guilty of IP as soon as he returned inbounds.

[PocketSidewalk]

Could you ever have a situation where Illegal Touching occurs during a running play (instead of a loose ball play)?

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by PocketSidewalk

Could you ever have a situation where Illegal Touching occurs during a running play (instead of a loose ball play)?

No.

[Texas Aggie]

NCAA ruling: 5 yards from the previous spot on both rulings. No loss of down. Had this play earlier this year.