Counting 7 on the line

[whitehat]

Pre-post note: not asking sarcastically here, just trying to understand the theory of counting backfield players instead of counting players on the line:

So, for those of you who count backfield, how do you know what you have? Do you have 12 players on the field or 5 in the backfield? Technically, there is no foul for 5 in the backfield.
You could have 5 in the backfield and 7 on the line. If you have counted the backs only, is your flag for illegal formation or IP?

Or you could have 4 in the backfield and 6 on the line..do you let this go with no flag because you counted 4 in the backfield and since you did not count the line you don't know you have only 6 on the line?

the answer so far has been "If" the R or U or whoever is counting for 11 on A and we see them signal for 11, then we know. Bringing me back to my concern for "too many variables in the equation" and the wings having to look to backfield to count and missing a false start or encrchmnt.

My point is in counting backfield players you have no direct means of actually doing what the rule intends for us to do, that is, determining if a team is legal by having 7 on the line. Should we not simply and directly count players on the line since that is what we are trying to determine?

...still seems to me we are placing too much faith in seeing an accurate and timely punch by the R or U especially with an inexpereinced crew and/or a critical down and distance situation.

Anyway, don't want to beat this into the ground but I am always looking for the best way to manage a game. Maybe counting backfield players is the best, it just has proven too unrealiable in my experience compared to counting 3 on your side of the snapper as a wing.

I realize I may be biased as well as I learned this mechanic (counting 3 on your side of snapper) as a terminal doing college ball and it made a great deal of sense to me.

Thanks for your continued feeback.

[mbyron]

1. I too think that NFHS will follow the NCAA rule change: count 4 in the backfield (which is where the advantage is to be had) and play. If A runs a play with 6 + 4, that will be legal.

2. Nobody counts 7 on the line: the wings count how many on their sides, signal, and infer the rest. Either way involves an inference. This count can end up wrong as easily as counting the backfield.

[Mike L]

I guess my thinking is, either way that works for you is fine. I just prefer knowing I have to count 4 every time vs some unknown number.

I just don't see any great advantage to trying to count your side of the snapper, looking for a signal from your counterpart, figure out what that signal means, add it to your count to come up with 7, over...
Count 4 backs, look for a signal from the R/U for 11 on A. If there's over 11, not my problem. The R or U will handle it.

My focus goes off the line? Pulease.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by whitehat

Pre-post note: not asking sarcastically here, just trying to understand the theory of counting backfield players instead of counting players on the line:

So, for those of you who count backfield, how do you know what you have? Do you have 12 players on the field or 5 in the backfield? Technically, there is no foul for 5 in the backfield.
You could have 5 in the backfield and 7 on the line. If you have counted the backs only, is your flag for illegal formation or IP?

This may sound sarcastic, but why is it hard to understand that the Referee and the Umpire both count the offense as their primary counting responsibility? If they count, they signal what they have. The wings in any system I have ever been involved in are not the primary to call illegal substitutions (which you want to call if you get the count in time and not hard for the Referee especially) or illegal participation if the play happens to go off.

Originally Posted by whitehat

Or you could have 4 in the backfield and 6 on the line..do you let this go with no flag because you counted 4 in the backfield and since you did not count the line you don't know you have only 6 on the line?

Isn't that what the signal is to do? I even as a back judge I signal if a team has less than so if my LJ picks up this, we know what to do when someone runs out on the field. I must be missing something here?

Originally Posted by whitehat

the answer so far has been "If" the R or U or whoever is counting for 11 on A and we see them signal for 11, then we know. Bringing me back to my concern for "too many variables in the equation" and the wings having to look to backfield to count and missing a false start or encrchmnt.

Isn't this was signals are for?

Originally Posted by whitehat

My point is in counting backfield players you have no direct means of actually doing what the rule intends for us to do, that is, determining if a team is legal by having 7 on the line. Should we not simply and directly count players on the line since that is what we are trying to determine?

Let us even say you have one of the wings if not both wings counting the offense that is 3 or 4 people counting the offense. I would hope someone has an accurate count. But if you just have two officials counting, then you do some deductive reasoning. If you have 11, you count who is in the back field. You also have a signal with both wings telling each other who closest to them is on or off the line, which helps determine who is actually in the back field. And then on top of all of this, the play is supposed to go off, so you then have to communicate with partners to make sure you had the right number of players on the field or off the line to stick with the penalty. Is this really that hard to understand?

Originally Posted by whitehat

...still seems to me we are placing too much faith in seeing an accurate and timely punch by the R or U especially with an inexpereinced crew and/or a critical down and distance situation.

What does experience have to do with this? I can tell you when I was a wing; it was hard to count looking through players to get an accurate count. So if I was even counting, I might not see a player standing next to another player. And the two people that are looking directly at the huddle and who is coming in and out of that huddle on a regular basis (it is not that hard to count from the Referee position from my experience). Then if we use your logic, we have one person counting the defense. Are you not relying too much on one person to get that count correct?

Originally Posted by whitehat

Anyway, don't want to beat this into the ground but I am always looking for the best way to manage a game. Maybe counting backfield players is the best, it just has proven too unrealiable in my experience compared to counting 3 on your side of the snapper as a wing.

I realize I may be biased as well as I learned this mechanic (counting 3 on your side of snapper) as a terminal doing college ball and it made a great deal of sense to me.

Thanks for your continued feeback.

I am sorry, this is baffling to me. I cannot imagine how your system makes it easier to count or it puts all the responsibility on one official to count the defense which would be a clear advantage if they played with 12. Often times the signals help you communicate to partners so you make sure you are seeing the same things. That is what the R and U are doing. Now if the rule is different at the college level that is fine, but the rules are the same as they have been for a long time at the high school level. And I do not see them changing with many places only have 4 or 5 officials on the field. In a 7 man you have multiple officials on each side of the ball counting. And I am not sure everyone has adopted this mechanic. I am not sure, but something tells me we are making it more complicated than it really needs to be. I have never done this any other way and no one has ever accused me or others if missing a rule.

Peace

[whitehat]

No worries JR, don't be baffled. Its just a different philopshy and approach. As R, I really do not care, nor do I mandate, how my crew counts (until either the state or local association makes it a matter of procedure to be followed) as long as we don't miss it on the field.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by whitehat

No worries JR, don't be baffled. Its just a different philopshy and approach. As R, I really do not care, nor do I mandate, how my crew counts (until either the state or local association makes it a matter of procedure to be followed) as long as we don't miss it on the field.

How can you say the wings have to know how many are on the offense, but you do not expect them to count something? That sounds a little inconsistent to me.

Peace

[whitehat]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

How can you say the wings have to know how many are on the offense, but you do not expect them to count something? That sounds a little inconsistent to me.

Peace

I don't say that. Officials, regardless of position, are always counting something, a team, a backfield, players on their side of snapper...
I sense you're getting a little too worked up about this whole thing...I hope not. Just a matter of doing things different and trying to generate some discussion as to how offcials do it and why and what they think works best...

as you say, "Peace!"

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by whitehat

I don't say that. Officials, regardless of position, are always counting something, a team, a backfield, players on their side of snapper...
I sense you're getting a little too worked up about this whole thing...I hope not. Just a matter of doing things different and trying to generate some discussion as to how offcials do it and why and what they think works best...

as you say, "Peace!"

Why would I be worked up over this? Dude, I am going to do it the way we have done this for years. Remember, you asked the question about how it was accomplished. I did not ask you why you do what you do remember.

Peace

[whitehat]

Shalom!

[ML99]

Originally Posted by whitehat

Should we not simply and directly count players on the line since that is what we are trying to determine?

As a wing I wouldn't have the time and view to count 7men on the LOS. That's why I coun't 4 in the backfield and look for the HR's 11 signal.

[whitehat]

Originally Posted by ML99

As a wing I wouldn't have the time and view to count 7men on the LOS. That's why I coun't 4 in the backfield and look for the HR's 11 signal.

That's part of the simple genius of counting linemen; you dont' have to count 7, just 3 (which is less than 4 BTW).

refbuz: exactly!

[whitehat]

A proposal: I assume most wings who now count 3 on their side of the snapper probably began, or at least have tried counting backs.

How many of you who count backs have actually tried counting 3 on your side of the snapper? Why not give it a try in a subvarsity game towards the end of this season, or a few scrimmages next summer and just see what you think. If it aint workin for you, then don't do it...

Hope you all have great games this weekend!

And, as my son always tells me just before heading out to a game: "Dad, don't blow any calls!!"

[Mike L]

Why? What's the difference?
You count your line side, look for a signal from the other wing, add the numbers, decide if you have 7 on the line.
I count 4 in the backfield, look for a signal from the R or U (which they have to give anyway), subtract the numbers and decide if I have 7 on the line.

I think everyone should do what they've been trained to do.
Besides, this idea means I'd have to convince the other wing to do the same thing and work out some signal system neither of us knows. And your "simplicity" of only having to count to 3 assumes the line is always balanced which I think is a faulty assumption.
Thanks, but no thanks.

[mbyron]

If it mattered at all, one could argue that 2 guys counting the backfield and 2 other guys signaling 11 is more reliable than 1 guy on each side counting the linemen on his side of the snapper.

I suspect that the change at the NCAA level had little to do with the mechanics and more to do with the fact that 5 in the backfield is more of an advantage than 6 on the line. So change the rule and the mechanic to count what matters: they can play with 10 as long as no more than 4 are in the backfield.