Some coaches just dont get it!

[jjrye22]

Question for chymechowder
Do you umpire baseball?
Baseball umps seem to put up with a lot more 'in your face' screaming than I would tolerate (I only do football).
It seems the standards for baseball are set quite differently than the standards for football as to how a coach can interact with the officials.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Welpe

I missed this but it is worth responding to.

Conversely, I think there are too many officials that are willing to be doormats.

Yup.

And football coaches and players get away with far more than baseball players and coaches do. I flagged a kid for taunting a few weeks ago and my first thought was that in a baseball game (with no intermediate penalty) I would've immediately ejected him. An assistant that drew a 15-yard USC a few weeks earlier got persona "you're horrible" and would've been ejected from a baseball game. No cowboy mentality, just a difference in the expectations and the proper responses of the sports.

Basketball coaches, I think, are the best behaved of all of them. They act up too much, they get a technical (which comes a lot quicker than an USC in football) and get to sit down knowing they can't get another one without getting run.

[archangel]

Originally Posted by jjrye22

Question for chymechowder
Do you umpire baseball?
Baseball umps seem to put up with a lot more 'in your face' screaming than I would tolerate (I only do football).
It seems the standards for baseball are set quite differently than the standards for football as to how a coach can interact with the officials.

I do football, baseball, basketball, and agree with Rich about the different sports penalties having a bearing on an officials enforcement of same.
A coaches penalty(T) in basketball can result in points for the opponent. In football, the USC yardage helps the opposing team. But in baseball? There is no penalty that "helps" the opposing team in scoring.

Back to the topic of "overhearing a coach complain about you"- its my opinion, and the majority of others I believe, that if I hear it, it was meant for me. Depends on the situation/context, since Im not LOOKING to penalize, but I also wont let the wrong comment go by...and I'm not going to assume a coach is saying that for ulterior team reasons....

[Jimmie24]

Don't look for opportunities to punish coaches. I agree with that. BUT if the coach says a lot of what has been discussed here you are either a part of the problem or solution. If you allow him to continue with is passive aggressive ways and look the other way you are part of the problem. Bang him. Make it easier on the next crew. Protect your young wing officials. How many officials get tired of hearing the constant whining on the side lines? How many young officials don't come back because of it? Take care of the sideline. Do it early in the game. Don't wait until it is "crunch time". Don't wait until you feel it might affect the out come of the game. Take care of it early. If you do it won't happen later.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by ajmc

When you think of it, there's really only two ways coaches cross the line...
The secret is learning to tell one type coach from the other as soon as possible.

ajmc, this post will be added to my .doc file called "Tips for Handling Coaches." I add gems like this whenever I come accross one. So thanks. This will be very helpful to me going forward and applies to both sports I work (football and basketball).

[Adam]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

ajmc, this post will be added to my .doc file called "Tips for Handling Coaches." I add gems like this whenever I come accross one. So thanks. This will be very helpful to me going forward and applies to both sports I work (football and basketball).

As of now, I'm strictly a basketball guy, and I agree. This will work well for me, I think.

[chymechowder]

Originally Posted by jjrye22

Question for chymechowder
Do you umpire baseball?
Baseball umps seem to put up with a lot more 'in your face' screaming than I would tolerate (I only do football).
It seems the standards for baseball are set quite differently than the standards for football as to how a coach can interact with the officials.

I think this is a good point. b/c baseball umps put up with more screaming, but they also DO more screaming than football umps. not to say that we HS officials should strictly emulate college and pro officials, but you hardly ever see high level football officials "getting into it" with coaches. and there's a reason for it:

right or wrong, football is different and we don't have that same dynamic. if a baseball manager rants from the dugout about how awful a call is, he may well get run for it. but if a football coach throws a nutty ON THE SIDELINE, he gets ignored for the most part.

personally, i think that's the way it should be. I dont think a wing official is being a "doormat" by ignoring this.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by chymechowder

I think this is a good point. b/c baseball umps put up with more screaming, but they also DO more screaming than football umps.

I don't scream on a baseball field and I won't go nose to nose with a coach either.

personally, i think that's the way it should be. I dont think a wing official is being a "doormat" by ignoring this.

Where do you personally draw the line? I really do hope you don't let a coach say whatever he wants to as long as its behind your back?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Where do you personally draw the line? I really do hope you don't let a coach say whatever he wants to as long as its behind your back?

Too many officials do. What coaches do in the NFL is not appropriate on a HS field and I know *we* don't tolerate that.

[chymechowder]

Originally Posted by Welpe

Where do you personally draw the line? I really do hope you don't let a coach say whatever he wants to as long as its behind your back?

I draw the line at verbal abuse. I guess my point is that I make a big distinction between "complaints" and "abuse."

If a coach were to tell me that I'm a "piece of ****"; or call me an a-hole, or tell an offical to F. off....I'm flagging that right away.

But if he wants to scream about a "horse**** call"; or ***** and moan that the officials dont know what they're doing; or as someone mentioned earlier, cry to his team that it's 16 versus 11 out there....everything like this falls under the category of COMPLAINTS to me.

[InsideTheStripe]

Originally Posted by chymechowder

But if he wants to scream about a "horse**** call"; or ***** and moan that the officials dont know what they're doing; or as someone mentioned earlier, cry to his team that it's 16 versus 11 out there....everything like this falls under the category of COMPLAINTS to me.

I was with you until the bold section - you don't get to stand on my sideline scream accusations of crew bias.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by InsideTheStripe

I was with you until the bold section - you don't get to stand on my sideline scream accusations of crew bias.

I agree. That one gets flagged by me.

Since this discussion has some how wandered into complaining, I can put up with a coach complaining a fair amount. Despite earlier characterizations to the contrary, I'm not some "cowboy" looking to lay down the law.

My original point was that just because something was not said to an official, doesn't mean the coach gets a free pass.

[JugglingReferee]

What do you think of these comments coming from the fans, in a game played with 11 and 12 year olds.

"You're playing favourites, ref."

"That's a BS call!"

"You guys are HS."

(FWIW, the call, a horsecollar, was correct.)

[ajmc]

Thereis a tremendous difference between spectators and coachs/sideline personnel. The best suggestion I could make about spectators, is TOTALLY IGNORE them and pay no attention to them - They Don't matter.

Coaches, on the other hand, are deserving of our respect and are entitled to the extension of professional curtesy. Emotional outbursts should be excused, where possible, but that does not mean tolerated or accepted. Coaches are REQUIRED to extend professional curtesy as well as they expect it to be offered.

Dealing with my 5 (now grown) children caused many instances of lost composure on my part, I can only imagine the frustration of dealing with 40 children. all at the same time. If somehow I can't ignore an emotional outburst, (which I usually can be very good at) I'll start with "the look", which should leave absolutely no doubt that whatever was said was inappropriate. If that fails, depending on what's been said, I might follow with a "brief" suggestion ("I hear you" or "that's enough") and turning away from further discussion. If that doesn't stop it, I'm not dealing with an emotional outburst anymore.

I'm now dealing with someone who is trying to intimidate me and reduce the standing of my position, which cannot be allowed to be successful.

If a coach (HC or assistant) has decided to embark on a continuing string of smart remarks behind me, at some point I'll pull him aside and quietly give him a choice, he can keep his comments to himself and remain on the sideline doing his job, or he can say whatever he wants, to whomever will listen, in the parking lot. From that point on, it's his decision which way things go.

We each get to draw wherever our "Line" will be, and it should be as obvious as possible so others know exactly where it is. When someone chooses to cross it, they've earned the consequences.

[JugglingReferee]

Unfortunately, one community has had a large increase in incidents of sideline fan behavior that includes expletives. Multiple people have said that this season has been bad. Coincidentally, there has been a near 100% changeover in leadership within this group too.

Refereeing 10 year olds my mind can't help wonder about other things, as there is lots of time between plays. I came to the conclusion that if my child was playing on a team like this one, he would be changing to a different team immediately. The extra driving to practices and games are worth it.