Question for you

[rockyroad]

Situation: Down by 5, home team has 4th and 8. RFP is blown at 34 seconds left on clock (yes, I was watching the clock carefully). Home breaks huddle and QB tells White HAt "I am taking a knee". White Hat and U then proceed to tell our defenders "He's taking a knee. Do not hit him." QB snaps ball at 10 seconds on clock, fakes taking a knee, and runs back down the field until the clock hits O and then falls down. Officials do nothing and allow the game to end.

Is this correct? Once they told our defenders they could not hit the QB, shouldn't they have killed the play as soon as he faked taking the knee? Is this a possible USC also?

[Reffing Rev.]

So coach, your kids just watched the QB run around for 10 seconds because the R said don't hit him? Poorly coached kids. IMO.

Is it correct officiating procedure? No, but that does not excuse a coaching error. This is a case where preventative officiating went too far.

As a R when the offense says they are taking a knee I move in a little tighter and keep my whistle at the ready so I can quickly alert the defenders that the QB has downed the ball. But I don't say anything to anyone about it, I signal to my U and my wings (a very subtle tapping of my hand to my knee) but that is it. But I always tell the crew in pregame be ready for anything, because a fumbled snap or a weasel play might just catch you off guard.

The other day had a player get to the punter before he punted the ball. he was well coached to 'not hit the punter' so he stood there and watched the punter kick it. Oops.

no matter who says what, players have to know when the ball is live and when it is dead.

[BktBallRef]

They simply shouldn't have told the defense he was taking a knee. They could have said something like, "If he takes a knee, don't hit him. Everyone protect yourselves. No cheap shots."

I probably would have killed it when he faked the knee, but no, there's nothing that says they "should" do this.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

So coach, your kids just watched the QB run around for 10 seconds because the R said don't hit him? Poorly coached kids. IMO.

Is it correct officiating procedure? No, but that does not excuse a coaching error. This is a case where preventative officiating went too far.

As a R when the offense says they are taking a knee I move in a little tighter and keep my whistle at the ready so I can quickly alert the defenders that the QB has downed the ball. But I don't say anything to anyone about it, I signal to my U and my wings (a very subtle tapping of my hand to my knee) but that is it. But I always tell the crew in pregame be ready for anything, because a fumbled snap or a weasel play might just catch you off guard.

The other day had a player get to the punter before he punted the ball. he was well coached to 'not hit the punter' so he stood there and watched the punter kick it. Oops.

no matter who says what, players have to know when the ball is live and when it is dead.

Knock it off, Rev. rockyroad is an excellent basketball official and is just asking a question about the situation. His kids were placed at a disadvantage by the officials who failed to do their job properly. Don't try to blame it on coaching. That's lame.

[kdf5]

I never tell the defense anything. If they clobber someone they might draw a flag but I never say a word anymore. If he starts walking backwards before kneeling down I blow it as his forward progress is stopped but that's about it.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

So coach, your kids just watched the QB run around for 10 seconds because the R said don't hit him? Poorly coached kids. IMO.

.

Our kids are coached well and play their butts off every week. Did they just stand there - no. Did they hesitate a second which gave the QB a chance to get away from them - yes. And they hesitated because - at every level of every sport - players are told to listen to the officials. When those two said "Do not hit him" they did what they were told to do - until they realized what was going on.

I asked a question that I did not know the answer to...common sense says that if the officials say something like that to the players, they should not then allow the QB to run around like that, but should have - at the least - killed the play as soon as he did not take the knee.

But thanks for taking that little shot at me, Mr. ReffingRev...it does your screen name proud.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

Knock it off, Rev. rockyroad is an excellent basketball official and is just asking a question about the situation. His kids were placed at a disadvantage by the officials who failed to do their job properly. Don't try to blame it on coaching. That's lame.

First of all Rockyroad might be a good official, but he came asking the question as a coach. His basketball officiating background has nothing to do with this question and I respect Rocky a lot as an official. Rocky should know that just as much as anyone he can be criticized if their positions they come here as an official or a coach.

Secondly, what Rev suggested is a very common practice. You might not like it, but we tell let it be known when there is a team taking their knee. We simply tell everyone to protect themselves we just use it as preventative officiating because one team is clearly trying to end the game.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Secondly, what Rev suggested is a very common practice. You might not like it, but we tell let it be known when there is a team taking their knee. We simply tell everyone to protect themselves we just use it as preventative officiating because one team is clearly trying to end the game.

Peace

But, Jeff, that's not what they did. They didn't tell the players to protect themselves...they specifically said - Do not hit him...that's different, and it caused the defenders to hesitate. So if the officials give bad information, is there no way to rectify the situation when the kid then fakes the knee and takes off running???

That's my question...and in no way am I saying "they cost us the game" or any crap like that. You know that I would never do that - we score more than two TD's out of 7 possessions and we win the stupid game.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

But, Jeff, that's not what they did. They didn't tell the players to protect themselves...they specifically said - Do not hit him...that's different, and it caused the defenders to hesitate. So if the officials give bad information, is there no way to rectify the situation when the kid then fakes the knee and takes off running???

That's my question...and in no way am I saying "they cost us the game" or any crap like that. You know that I would never do that - we score more than two TD's out of 7 possessions and we win the stupid game.

Then you need to teach them what to do during that part of the game (right or wrong). If the ball is live, they can hit people with the ball. And if the runner is running around, then he is fair game. Now if they would have penalized your players for hitting or tackling the runner, then you have a real beef. That being said I would have killed the play when the runner faked the kneeling. I do not see my crew allowing this to happen the way it did in your game. I do not understand why all of a sudden players are listening to officials in this situation when it comes to other things they think they know everything when you try to say something to them in other parts of the game?

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not understand why all of a sudden players are listening to officials in this situation when it comes to other things they think they know everything when you try to say something to them in other parts of the game?

Peace

I don't know...maybe it's because of my background in officiating, but our kids know that if the official takes the time to tell them something, they had better listen and do/not do whatever it is that was said to them.

[umpirebob71]

I've often wondered why a QB doesn't take a knee from the shotgun position. The team can place two players back with him for protection, and to help if there is a fumble. If the QB is that far back, there is virtually no chance of a B player hitting him. Just wondering.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I don't know...maybe it's because of my background in officiating, but our kids know that if the official takes the time to tell them something, they had better listen and do/not do whatever it is that was said to them.

And it is my experience in football officiating that this almost never happens and players all the time think what they see on TV, they can do. I have taken the time to explain a lot of things to players on the football field and they ignore it, and have to get flagged or nearly thrown out of the game before they listen. I agree that what was said specifically was not the best, but the coach is ultimately responsible for what their team does, not the official. And football officiating is a little different than basketball officiating when it comes to how players listen and what they listen to. I am not blaming you, just saying teach them in this part of the game what to do. Now you know there are officials right or wrong that will tell kids similar things. Now adjust to what they may hear or face. That is why my crew uses “Guys, careful and do not act stupid and protect yourselves.” And some here would have a problem with that, but that is what we do.

Peace

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by umpirebob71

I've often wondered why a QB doesn't take a knee from the shotgun position. The team can place two players back with him for protection, and to help if there is a fumble. If the QB is that far back, there is virtually no chance of a B player hitting him. Just wondering.

A muffed snap is far more likely in shotgun.

[whitehat]

RockyR, thanks for offering up the situation: I never tell kids not to hit or play. I do, in a situation like that, move in and make it obvious that a knee is going to be taken.. I may, at most, say out loud before the snap something like: 'be smart here" etc. I don't ever tell the defense he is going to take a knee simply becasue I dont trust teenage athletes that much!
Actually it has crossed my mind, but never done it, that if a QB did tells me he was taking a knee and then did something else, flag him for UC, lying to an official ;-).

This brings up another situation that I pregame and sometimes my crew (not always same one each game) look at me funny: "Watch the fake spike"
I saw this from the sideline in a college game a few years ago. late in the game, perfect situation for a clock stopping spike. QB takes snap, fakes like he is throwing the ball down for the spike and then tosses a perfect TD pass into the EZ to a wide open receiver. Problem is, the ball was dead because 3 officials came down on their whistles when they saw the QB's arm go down for the fake spike. it cost a team a TD and needless to say the offended coach was not easy to satisfy. I don't remember if that non-score was the difference in the game...

[Reffing Rev.]

Alright coach settle down and get back in your box... You've got a beef, I hear ya, I said that. But its not the officials' fault. You're players let the ball become live and not do anything. The same is true in basketball, the referee does not make the ball become dead he simply indicates that something has happened to make the ball dead.

But just for fun lets look at what could have been done...

Some have suggested an unsportsmanlike penalty which being a non-player foul would have succeeding spot enforcement, games already over too bad.

Some have suggested killing the play. Well since nothing happened to cause the ball to be dead we've got an inadvertent whistle. With the indavertant whistle team A chooses to replay obviously. Penalize the USC if you want, but clock starts on the ready and its 4th down. Yeah we've got to extend the period for one untimed down but all team A has to do is let the clock run out, then run their 1 play and take a real knee.

Or same as above but the R invokes the rule which allows him to not start the clock because Team A was trying to consume time "illegally" (which is a stretch). Still Team A can take their snap and run off 10 seconds.

What could not be an option is to whistle the play dead and give Team B a turnover...two fundamentals: 1. No live ball foul causes the ball to become dead. and 2. No foul causes loss of the ball.

So coach I don't know how you would like to rectify this situation, but please feel free to contact your state association if you feel your team was the victim of an unsporting act.