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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Sep 24, 2009, 09:08pm
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set the chains

NF Rules Team A 3rd and 5 from their 15. A is stopped at the 9 yard line. During the run 5 yard face mask penatly against B at the 10 yard line. After the whistle B#40 is called for a dead ball unsportsman foul and then A#75 is called for an unneccessay roughness foul. The fouls did not happen at the same time. They were a couple of seconds apart. Where do you set the chains and what down is it?
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Old Thu Sep 24, 2009, 09:49pm
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a, 1/10 @ a14. Rfp.
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Old Thu Sep 24, 2009, 09:56pm
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Assuming you mean A is on their own 15 and events happened in order mentioned:
1. A would need to get to their own 20 for a first down.
2. 5 yd face mask foul by B is enforced from the basic spot which in this case is the end of the run (9 yard line), and the down is repeated. So now we have 3rd and 6 from A's 14.
3. enforce 15 yds for dead ball unsportmanlike foul against B placing the ball at A's 29. A now has reached the line to gain so a first down is awarded.
4. Enforce half the distance to the goal against A for their unneccessary roughness, taking them back to their own 14 1/2 where it will be 1st and 10.

A few things to consider when a play like this happens: first, stay calm. Then, enforce live ball fouls first then dead ball fouls in order they occured keeping in mind that dead ball fouls are always succeeding spot enforcements. And, it is possible for team A to receive a first down if an interim succeeding spot gets them to the line to gain. The order of the dead ball fouls is important. Most often if B's dead ball foul is first it likely, but not automatically, would result in the line to gain being reached as in your example.

Unless I am missing something here that is my interpretation...
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Old Fri Sep 25, 2009, 09:23am
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WH got it. A common mistake among HS officials is that they won't award a 1st and 10 in this situation since after both fouls are administered, the ball is still behind the original LTG.

If one of the dead ball penalties takes it past the LTG, it's a first down for Team A.
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Old Fri Sep 25, 2009, 10:14am
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And don't forget that you will hardly ever have a 1st and 25. You would only have 1st and 25 if a dead ball foul (15 yarder) against A occurs AFTER the RFP.
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Old Fri Sep 25, 2009, 12:43pm
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order of dead ball fouls

Quote:
Originally Posted by whitehat View Post
unsportmanlike foul against B...unneccessary roughness against A...enforce live ball fouls first then dead ball fouls in order they occured
What if two different officials called the two different dead ball fouls and nobody knows which one occurred first?
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Old Fri Sep 25, 2009, 01:34pm
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Same result....handle the face mask, which gives you a first down. Then handle the dead ball fouls in the order if you know them, or pick an order if you don't. At the end of it all it will be first down for A. IMHO..Jim
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Old Fri Sep 25, 2009, 01:39pm
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Originally Posted by jemiller View Post
.....or pick an order if you don't.
Wrong! If you don't know the order then signal them but don't walk them off and don't cancel them either with the incomplete signal.
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Old Fri Sep 25, 2009, 10:58pm
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Originally Posted by stegenref View Post
What if two different officials called the two different dead ball fouls and nobody knows which one occurred first?
The penalties offset.
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Old Sun Sep 27, 2009, 08:42am
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Originally Posted by kdf5 View Post
And don't forget that you will hardly ever have a 1st and 25. You would only have 1st and 25 if a dead ball foul (15 yarder) against A occurs AFTER the RFP.
Thanks for that. That keeps me from starting a thread from what I saw Friday.

After a play the ball was spotted right on the line to gain (B's 45. I think). The A HC was chewing on the side judge for a measurement. Referee came over, eyeballed it and called for the chains to come out. The A HC was still jawing. R throws the flag for USC. The chains showed it was a first down, and the 15 yards was then marked off. Chains then showed 1st and 10 from the A 40. Then the B HC asked R if it shouldn't be 1st and 25 since the USC happened after the play gained a first down. R said it did not.
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Old Mon Sep 28, 2009, 10:39am
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Originally Posted by kdf5 View Post
Wrong! If you don't know the order then signal them but don't walk them off and don't cancel them either with the incomplete signal.
Relevant case: 10.2.5.B situation a.
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Old Mon Sep 28, 2009, 10:56am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whitehat View Post
And, it is possible for team A to receive a first down if an interim succeeding spot gets them to the line to gain.
I understand that this is correct...what is the exact rule that handles this situation? Is it 5-1-2? I checked over the rule book to get the exact wording on this but am having a hard time understanding how 5-1-2 would apply in this situation (if it does).


ART. 2 . . . A new series of downs is awarded:
a. After a first, second or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded
only after considering the effect of any act during the down other than nonplayer or unsportsmanlike conduct fouls by A, and any dead-ball foul by B.
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Old Mon Sep 28, 2009, 11:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Welpe View Post
I understand that this is correct...what is the exact rule that handles this situation? Is it 5-1-2? I checked over the rule book to get the exact wording on this but am having a hard time understanding how 5-1-2 would apply in this situation (if it does).


ART. 2 . . . A new series of downs is awarded:
a. After a first, second or third down, a new series of downs shall be awarded
only after considering the effect of any act during the down other than nonplayer or unsportsmanlike conduct fouls by A, and any dead-ball foul by B.
That would be right. A player foul, holding by A for example, would have to be considered before awarding a new series, so if it takes them from beyond the LTG to behind the LTG you can't award a new series, but an USC or Nonplayer foul don't have to be considered, they are enforced from the succeeding spot, where the ball would be next snapped. So they get credit then for making the LTG, then are dinged.
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Old Wed Sep 30, 2009, 08:53am
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So if A reaches the line to gain on 3rd down and then has a dead ball personal foul. It would be first and 10, 15-yds back from the succeeding spot?
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Old Wed Sep 30, 2009, 09:27am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john_faz View Post
So if A reaches the line to gain on 3rd down and then has a dead ball personal foul. It would be first and 10, 15-yds back from the succeeding spot?
Exactly.
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