Where to set the chains?

[FredFan7]

NFHS

Third and 10 for A at the 50 yard line. Pass is incomplete. After the play B24 taunts A80. A80 then curses B24 each drawing one USC penalty.

What's the number of the next down and where do you set the chains?

[Warrenkicker]

You have to enforce both penalties. However you will get back to the same spot. Don't move the chains, just walk off 15 yards against B and then walk off 15 yards against A. This will get you back to where you started but because after the B penalty you were beyond the line-to-gain it will be a first down for A. So A's ball 1-10 at the 50.

[Daryl H. Long]

This is a double foul and both penalties are enforce because of unsportsmanlike. The next down is determined after administration of ALL penalties are complete.

After all penalties are enforced the ball will be placed at the 50 yard line. Since this spot is not beyond the line to gain a new series is NOT awarded.

[NDRef]

I agree with Warren, DEAD BALL fouls are administered on their own merit. This is a first down. Double fouls are LIVE BALL fouls therefore not applicable in this situation. Dead ball fouls NEVER offset for yardage unless a fight is involved and it cannot be determined who started.

[AndrewMcCarthy]

These are dead ball fouls. Enforce them in the order they occur and check the status of the line to gain after each enforcement.

Enforce B's foul. It gives A a first down. Signal first down for A. Enforce B's foul. You're back to where you started. Now set the chains first and 10 for A since all fouls were before the RFP.

On dead ball fouls that occur near the same time, it's good to think of time "stretching out" when you enforce and take them all individually- pretend you're enforcing the first one before the second one ever happened then move on and enforce the next.

First and 10 at the 50.

[mcrowder]

Methinks Daryl's having a bad day. I don't think he's missed 2 in a month... much less 2 in a day.

[schwinn]

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long
This is a double foul and both penalties are enforce because of unsportsmanlike. The next down is determined after administration of ALL penalties are complete.

After all penalties are enforced the ball will be placed at the 50 yard line. Since this spot is not beyond the line to gain a new series is NOT awarded.

Fundamental IX. Fouls

5. A double foul results only when both teams commit fouls, other than USC or non-player, during the same live-ball period....

[l3will]

Originally posted by NDRef
I agree with Warren, DEAD BALL fouls are administered on their own merit. This is a first down. Double fouls are LIVE BALL fouls therefore not applicable in this situation. Dead ball fouls NEVER offset for yardage unless a fight is involved and it cannot be determined who started.

I too agree with Warren. But just to be complete, if the order of fouls is reversed... A80 commits the first USC; then B24 commits the second USC. We penalize A 15 yards first, then the 15 yards for B's USC; we end up at the same spot, but now with
the down being the same as when they occurred; in this case fouth and 10, because they were dead ball fouls.

[Daryl H. Long]

Originally posted by mcrowder
Methinks Daryl's having a bad day. I don't think he's missed 2 in a month... much less 2 in a day.

Sorry guys. The first sentence of my post should have said "This is NOT a double foul....

My gut tells me that you have to administer all the penalties before deciding what the next down will be but maybe I better not rely on that right now.

Last Friday's game has really taken an emotional toll on me this week. I wrote about it in the "1st year as an official" thread on this forum. The game I had was in a league in which I am a former Commissioner and there was a pregame ceremony to honor a cheerleader and football player who had been killed in separate car accidents.

For those of you actually keeping score the other faux pas was in the "untimed down or not thread" when I answered the sitch as if foul was live ball when in fact it was clearly stated dead ball.

I am currently standing by my guns in the "when does the clock start" thread.

PS to mcrowder: Thanks for bringing notice of my mistake in a kind way. Given my week, that you attributed the mistakes to a bad week rather than being just plain ignorant of the rules was uplifting but the best compliment was your reference to my making few mistakes.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Daryl H. Long
... but the best compliment was your reference to my making few mistakes.

Yeah, like the "starting the clock thread."

[mcrowder]

No problem, Daryl. You have a long history of being on the "right" side of the discussions, and usually have a good way of explaining the obscurities of a difficult situation.