Overtime Play

[whitehat]

Originally Posted by mbyron

I agree with the general principle of not calling fouls unless they're clearly fouls.

I disagree with the general principle of not calling fouls because it might affect the outcome of the game.

MB, perhpas this is a bit of a semantics thing as I assume you are a very good and conscientous official doing your best to not affect the outcome of any game and doing what seems fair in unclear siuations. I think you may agree with the "blue" general principle more than you might first think. If nothing else the following example may help clarify what I mean and how I approach officiating in general...

For example: Doesn't really matter the score but lets say its a very close game. A32 sweeps left and scores a TD. Yet, A65, clearly holds way over on the right side, 15 yards away and behind the point of attack and not in any way affecting the play. The general principle you disagree with keeps the flag in my pocket. I would hope you would keep the flag in your pocket too despite it being clearly a foul. If we throw that flag, despite being technically correct by rule, we unneccesarily (and unfairly IMO) affect the outcome of the game.

BTW, as R in that case I would likeley wave off the flag and have a philisophical discussion after the game with the crew member who is convinced he needed to throw it.

Just because its a foul does not mean its a flag....

[Reffing Rev.]

It was a JV game I don't think there is any video.

The ball came to rest right in front of the LJ. As our crew conferenced about it, we came to the point, "Is a 'scoop' possession?" Finally, I had asked LJ yes or no, did B have control? He said yes, so we played another OT. If he had said no, I've got no problem calling the safety and ending the game.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by whitehat

For example: Doesn't really matter the score but lets say its a very close game. A32 sweeps left and scores a TD. Yet, A65, clearly holds way over on the right side, 15 yards away and behind the point of attack and not in any way affecting the play. The general principle you disagree with keeps the flag in my pocket. I would hope you would keep the flag in your pocket too despite it being clearly a foul. If we throw that flag, despite being technically correct by rule, we unneccesarily (and unfairly IMO) affect the outcome of the game.

Why is that clearly a foul? I deny that it's a foul at all, much less a clear case of one.

I'm not pocketing my flag here solely in order to avoid affecting the outcome of the game. I'm pocketing it because this is not a foul unless the contact is severe enough to warrant a PF.

I think that it's a serious mistake to train younger officials to try to avoid affecting the outcome of a game. They need to learn what's a foul and what is not, and to flag clear fouls when they see them regardless of the context.

[whitehat]

MB, I am describing a "clear holding foul" that occurs away from the play. A65 grabs onto B and "HOLDs" him. Holding is, by rule, a foul. Agree?

What I am suggesting is officials need to have some common game sense and think before throwing a flag on something that may be by rule a foul but has absolutely no affect on the play (and of course is not a safety matter, PF, or UC issue. we must flag those)
I am confused by your comments:
1. either, you do not see "holding" as a foul (that is pretty basic)
2. Or, you say we must throw a flag on a "hold" that is completely away from and inconsequential to the play.

Do you ever see a foul that you do not flag? If "yes," then we are in agreeemnt. You likely have a very good common sense reason why you keep the flag in your pocket.
If you say "no," then you would not be on my crew very long.

MB, I agree completely that young officials must learn to recognize what is and is not a foul. Yet, they also must learn to recognize those times when the flag is better left in thier pocket. You agree?

[mbyron]

I think we have no significant disagreement. You're using 'foul' to refer to what the rule book calls a foul, whereas I'm using it to refer to behavior on the field that deserves a flag.

My main point, restated to avoid confusion, was that we should not ignore behavior that deserves a flag in order to avoid affecting the outcome of the game.

[whitehat]

MB, yes I agree, were on the same page here. sometimes words get in our way... tks