Experienced Backjudges?

[Rich]

[QUOTE=JRutledge;628548]

Originally Posted by stegenref

The term crack back block is only a phrase used at the NFL level to describe an illegal act. There is no such terminology at the high school level or the college level. Only lineman can block below the waist and a WR is not a lineman by definition. So there is nothing special to watch out for, this block would be obvious to almost anyone if they understand the rule. There is nothing illegal about a WR coming back to the ball and making a legal block (above the waist and on the side or in front).

Peace

A "receiver" can certainly line up on the line and in the FBZ, so the block *could* be legal.

[JRutledge]

[QUOTE=RichMSN;628625]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

A "receiver" can certainly line up on the line and in the FBZ, so the block *could* be legal.

Anyone can line up anywhere and block legally. But a wide receiver or back cannot line up where they are expected to be and block below the waist or block in the back or even clip unless they are on the line and in the zone. If you are saying a TE could do this, yes they could. But they would have to be awfully tight to do so.

Peace

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Anyone can line up anywhere and block legally. But a wide receiver or back cannot line up where they are expected to be and block below the waist or block in the back or even clip unless they are on the line and in the zone. If you are saying a TE could do this, yes they could. But they would have to be awfully tight to do so.

Peace

You are making it sound way more complicated than it is. You shouldn't use fan terms like WR, TE, SE, RB... All you have to think about is 1) Is the player a lineman? and 2) Is he in the FBZ?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by LDUB

You are making it sound way more complicated than it is. You shouldn't use fan terms like WR, TE, SE, RB... All you have to think about is 1) Is the player a lineman? and 2) Is he in the FBZ?

I disagree because a Wide Receiver suggests that the player is far away from the interior line just by definition. You cannot be very wide and be in the FBZ. And a "back" of any kind cannot block below the waist, clip or block in the back. I do not know how complicated it can be at this point unless you want me to quote the rule word for word to a person that might not understand all that language in the first place. The term "crack back block" is not in our code.

Peace

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I disagree because a Wide Receiver suggests that the player is far away from the interior line just by definition.

Yes but a lot of people think that a team can line up with 3 tight ends. They assign positions to players by what is listed on the roster, not by where they line up on the field. That's how it gets confusing when you use these non-defined "fan terms".

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Yes but a lot of people think that a team can line up with 3 tight ends. They assign positions to players by what is listed on the roster, not by where they line up on the field. That's how it gets confusing when you use these non-defined "fan terms".

The term Wide Receiver means they are wide on the formation. This is a pretty "vanilla" or common term. I have never heard this suggested as a "fan" term.

I really do not see why this is hard to understand. I do not think this is a roster issue, the guy was asking a rules question, not for us to classify who is on his or their roster. And if he did not understand he can ask for clarification.

Peace

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The term Wide Receiver means they are wide on the formation. This is a pretty "vanilla" or common term. I have never heard this suggested as a "fan" term.

At the snap there are only 3 defined positions for players to line up in and they are snapper, lineman, and back. Those are the only ones that matter when it comes to the rules.

You seem to be mixing up actual football definitions with words used by fans. Earlier you said a WR cannot be a lineman. I'm sure that is what John Madden would say but if the WR's shoulders are parallel to the goal line and he's breaking the snapper's waist then he is a lineman.

The point about the roster thing is that you cannot make these statements and say that ____ (undefined roster position) cannot do ________ . Sure it may be true a lot of the time but these absolutes cause problems without actually learning the real rule. You can't say that a defensive safety can't be blocked below the waist on a blitz. He may walk up and be on the line and in the FBZ at the snap. You can't say that the interior linemen for A can block below the waist. Some teams run weird formations where the snapper is 10+ yards away from the other linemen.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by LDUB

At the snap there are only 3 defined positions for players to line up in and they are snapper, lineman, and back. Those are the only ones that matter when it comes to the rules.

You seem to be mixing up actual football definitions with words used by fans. Earlier you said a WR cannot be a lineman. I'm sure that is what John Madden would say but if the WR's shoulders are parallel to the goal line and he's breaking the snapper's waist then he is a lineman.

The point about the roster thing is that you cannot make these statements and say that ____ (undefined roster position) cannot do ________ . Sure it may be true a lot of the time but these absolutes cause problems without actually learning the real rule. You can't say that a defensive safety can't be blocked below the waist on a blitz. He may walk up and be on the line and in the FBZ at the snap. You can't say that the interior linemen for A can block below the waist. Some teams run weird formations where the snapper is 10+ yards away from the other linemen.

OK man whatever. The term "Crack back block" has a very specific definition at the NFL level. I was conveying the NFL wide receiver coming back to the where the ball was snapped and blocking below the waist. If you have a problem with the explanation, you will just have to have a problem with it. Life will go on.

Peace

[Reffing Rev.]

I confess when I made that statement a month ago I slipped into coach language as in what coaches always yell..."Thats a crack back block..." I admit I should have said watch the player you are keying on (widest receiver on strong side by the NFHS book) especially if he is blocking back towards the ball to see if he blocks below the waist or in the back. And as you watch blocking ahead of a runner to the weak side be mindful of ends and backs outside the tackle blocking down for the same thing.

Sure I used a coach word mea culpa mea culpa. But as officials if we can't understand an occassional coach word then we need to hang up the whistle because we have to be in tune with the game as it is being taught and played today. We may have to sometimes translate "coach-speak" into code language but we do have to be fluent in it.

Oh and to the guy who said there are only three defined positions for A at the snap as far as the rules are concerned...you are mistaken there are 4. snapper...lineman...backs, and I would argue ends have enough rules specifics to list them here...ends can remove a hand from on or near the ground, ends are elligible recievers, etc.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

Oh and to the guy who said there are only three defined positions for A at the snap as far as the rules are concerned...you are mistaken there are 4. snapper...lineman...backs, and I would argue ends have enough rules specifics to list them here...ends can remove a hand from on or near the ground, ends are elligible recievers, etc.

No, end is not a player designation. NF 2-32, NCAA 2-27. Rather than saying "An end is eligible to catch a forward pass" the rules use phrases like "A player positioned on the end of his scrimmage line..."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

I confess when I made that statement a month ago I slipped into coach language as in what coaches always yell..."Thats a crack back block..." I admit I should have said watch the player you are keying on (widest receiver on strong side by the NFHS book) especially if he is blocking back towards the ball to see if he blocks below the waist or in the back. And as you watch blocking ahead of a runner to the weak side be mindful of ends and backs outside the tackle blocking down for the same thing.

Sure I used a coach word mea culpa mea culpa. But as officials if we can't understand an occassional coach word then we need to hang up the whistle because we have to be in tune with the game as it is being taught and played today. We may have to sometimes translate "coach-speak" into code language but we do have to be fluent in it.

Oh and to the guy who said there are only three defined positions for A at the snap as far as the rules are concerned...you are mistaken there are 4. snapper...lineman...backs, and I would argue ends have enough rules specifics to list them here...ends can remove a hand from on or near the ground, ends are elligible recievers, etc.

Referring to a position is not "coach's speak." I guess as a basketball official I should never say "point guard" even though there is no such reference in a rulebook (at least I have ever found).

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The term Wide Receiver means they are wide on the formation. This is a pretty "vanilla" or common term. I have never heard this suggested as a "fan" term.

I really do not see why this is hard to understand. I do not think this is a roster issue, the guy was asking a rules question, not for us to classify who is on his or their roster. And if he did not understand he can ask for clarification.

Peace

I cannot ever remember using the term "wide receiver" on the field.

[mbyron]

The issue is certainly communication. We frequently must explain a ruling to a coach, and the question is whether to use his terminology or that of the rule book.

If you're asking a question about a rule on the forum and you sound like a coach, it comes to pretty much the same thing.

IMO, an official who answers a rules question without applying the proper terminology risks being misleading, wrong, or both because the rules are not couched in coach-speak.

If I'm talking to a coach, I might summarize the rule in rule-speak and then explain how it applies to the situation on the field: "That means that your players must ALL be set for 1 second before your WR goes in motion."

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by RichMSN

I cannot ever remember using the term "wide receiver" on the field.

We are not on the field right now.

That being said I have used the term and other specific position terms sure to explain who was not lined up properly or who was covered or who might have been called for "holding" or any number of penalties.

I believe in using rulebook language too, but most people know what a wide receiver is, they might not know what an end is or better yet split end. And who cares anyway, because the terms are not contrary to what the rules are like someone referring to a cut block or a chop block and mean something completely different that what the rules say and means.

Peace

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

most people know what a wide receiver is

No the don't. Just yesterday on TV I heard the announcer say something like the team is setting their tight end up wide. The player who usually lined up at TE was lined up far to the side, in the backfield, and there was a split end out even wider than him. I've also seen this happen where it is a RB lined up wide. Isn't this what you are saying a WR is? Then why is this ESPN announcer calling him a TE? It's because he is referring to what his normal position is, what he is listed as on the roster.