False start or Illegal Shift?

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by VALJ

What's the prevailing idea on false start versus illegal motion on a back? As a rising WH, I'm curious.

I had this one in my scrimmage the other day. We had a team lined up in the wishbone, and the front RB missed the snap count. He flinched, and I killed the play with a flag for false start. The experience WH mentoring me said I should have let the play go and flagged it as illegal motion. I told him that I thought it was a FS since that's "simulating the snap" (intentional or not). Thoughts?

Sounds to me like you got it right. Simulating a snap = false start.

[HLin NC]

I've had the same thing happen to me. That's why I decided long ago to leave a tailback and/or fullback to the WH as you get a different answer from different ones on FS/IM. I'll take the slot or wing back on my side but leave the ones closest for him and the he can do as he wishes.

Originally Posted by HLin NC

I've had the same thing happen to me. That's why I decided long ago to leave a tailback and/or fullback to the WH as you get a different answer from different ones on FS/IM. I'll take the slot or wing back on my side but leave the ones closest for him and the he can do as he wishes.

Agreed. I had the same thing with my WH last fall on one play, where I flagged the guy in motion for a false start because he cut upfield before the snap (his foot was in the neutral zone before the snap) and killed the play. My WH said that was illegal motion and signaled it as such. At halftime, he admonished me about it, saying the guy in motion could never commit false start, only illegal motion. When I mentioned his foot was in the neutral zone before the snap, WH said it don't matter, still illegal motion. My U pulled me aside later and said, don't sweat it, because they both (false start and illegal motion) have the same penalty, just the difference is live ball/dead ball.

[Rich]

I told my wings to shut these things down if they think it needs to be shut down. If it's a back and they don't shut it down, I may or may not depending on the situation, but I have yet to question a wing who has called it a false start.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

Agreed. I had the same thing with my WH last fall on one play, where I flagged the guy in motion for a false start because he cut upfield before the snap (his foot was in the neutral zone before the snap) and killed the play. My WH said that was illegal motion and signaled it as such. At halftime, he admonished me about it, saying the guy in motion could never commit false start, only illegal motion. When I mentioned his foot was in the neutral zone before the snap, WH said it don't matter, still illegal motion. My U pulled me aside later and said, don't sweat it, because they both (false start and illegal motion) have the same penalty, just the difference is live ball/dead ball.

Sounds like encroachment to me. It's usually not a false start if he's already in motion, and it can't be illegal motion until the snap.

2-8 Encroachment: Encroachment occurs when a player is illegally in the neutral zone during the
time interval starting when the ball is marked ready for play and until the ball is snapped or free kicked.

Originally Posted by mbyron

Sounds like encroachment to me. It's usually not a false start if he's already in motion, and it can't be illegal motion until the snap.

2-8 Encroachment: Encroachment occurs when a player is illegally in the neutral zone during the
time interval starting when the ball is marked ready for play and until the ball is snapped or free kicked.

Yeah, I realized that after the game that night. I talked to the WH after the game, and asked if he heard me say that. He said, still no difference.

[Texas Aggie]

What's the prevailing idea on false start versus illegal motion on a back?

I don't know about prevailing, but we try and move everything we can into the false start category. Its much easier to kill a play than it is to bring back a touchdown. Plus, it takes less time and rarely, as long as something looks wrong with the movement, do we hear anything from the coaches. I'm not saying you base everything on that, but its a bonus.

To me, calling NCAA rules which are or may be a bit different than Fed in this area, I'm only going to call a live ball illegal shift if, say, 2 guys were shifting and one stops while the other stays in motion without stopping before and during the snap (may be other similar examples). However, if there is any movement toward the LOS by a player who wasn't already in motion (by himself) at the snap, we're shutting it down. We go over this in pregame as we believe it simulates the start of a play and fits under the false start category. In fact, I had this Saturday. One back starts to go in motion and the other one starts moving toward the line just before and during the snap. False start.

[JugglingReferee]

I would love to see a US guy ref a Canadian game.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

To me, calling NCAA rules which are or may be a bit different than Fed in this area, I'm only going to call a live ball illegal shift if, say, 2 guys were shifting and one stops while the other stays in motion without stopping before and during the snap (may be other similar examples). However, if there is any movement toward the LOS by a player who wasn't already in motion (by himself) at the snap, we're shutting it down. We go over this in pregame as we believe it simulates the start of a play and fits under the false start category. In fact, I had this Saturday. One back starts to go in motion and the other one starts moving toward the line just before and during the snap. False start.

What if it's just part of a shift? If the motion isn't quick, jerky, or some other way simulating action at the snap (such as pretending to play the ball), or seems to have no reason to exist other than to draw the defense, the backs have the right to participate in a shift, which may include movement in any direction. It's not uncommon for team A to confuse team B by starting someone in motion in a way that that player might on many plays be in motion at the snap, and then have other players move, and then have everybody reset, completing a shift. I've seen it countless times by double wingbone or flexbone teams, where they motion the wingbacks or shift them into deep halfback position. That sort of action also used to be seen by teams using what they called a Canadian style multiple offense, where they'd get as close as they could to Canadian motion under USAn rules.

Robert

[VALJ]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

I've had the same thing happen to me. That's why I decided long ago to leave a tailback and/or fullback to the WH as you get a different answer from different ones on FS/IM. I'll take the slot or wing back on my side but leave the ones closest for him and the he can do as he wishes.

On the wings, I definitely leave the backfield to the WH. But I'm going to be the WH three times this year, and I won't have anyone left to give it to!