False start or Illegal Shift?

[bossman72]

A (a) person on the line or (b) person in the backfield starts to go down into their stance (putting hand on ground) as the ball is being snapped.

Should this be blown dead and a false start called or should this just be ruled an illegal shift and play continues?

[HLin NC]

Shift-

2.39 SITUATION: Is it a shift if before the snap: (a) A’s guards and tackles go from a hands-on-knees position to a three-point stance; or (b) back A1 misses the snap count and takes a half step forward while going from an upright position to a four-point stance;

RULING: Yes, in (a), (b),

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by bossman72

A (a) person on the line or (b) person in the backfield starts to go down into their stance (putting hand on ground) as the ball is being snapped.

Should this be blown dead and a false start called or should this just be ruled an illegal shift and play continues?

Unless the motion simulates action at the snap, this is an illegal shift and a live-ball foul. See 7-1-7.

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by mbyron

Unless the motion simulates action at the snap, this is an illegal shift and a live-ball foul. See 7-1-7.

Ok thanks. That's what I called in the game but my partner said I should have blown that dead.

[FBullock]

while the penalties are the same, this is illegial motion not illegial shift. Illegial shift is more than 1 player moving at the snap while illegial more is 1 person illegial moving at the snap. Again, penalty is the same.

[HLin NC]

ART. 6 . . . After a huddle or shift all 11 players of A shall come to an absolute
stop and shall remain stationary simultaneously without movement of hands,
feet, head or body for at least one second before the snap.

PENALTY: illegal shift (Art. 6)

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by FBullock

while the penalties are the same, this is illegial motion not illegial shift. Illegial shift is more than 1 player moving at the snap while illegial more is 1 person illegial moving at the snap. Again, penalty is the same.

As HLin's citation points out, the foul on this play is illegal shift. As you point out, the penalty is the same.

You might find this account of illegal shift/motion by Bob M. helpful: link.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by mbyron

As HLin's citation points out, the foul on this play is illegal shift. As you point out, the penalty is the same.

But if you signaled it as illegal shift, you wouldn't be able to hold your sandwich in the other hand.

[VALJ]

What's the prevailing idea on false start versus illegal motion on a back? As a rising WH, I'm curious.

I had this one in my scrimmage the other day. We had a team lined up in the wishbone, and the front RB missed the snap count. He flinched, and I killed the play with a flag for false start. The experience WH mentoring me said I should have let the play go and flagged it as illegal motion. I told him that I thought it was a FS since that's "simulating the snap" (intentional or not). Thoughts?

[bossman72]

Originally Posted by VALJ

What's the prevailing idea on false start versus illegal motion on a back? As a rising WH, I'm curious.

I had this one in my scrimmage the other day. We had a team lined up in the wishbone, and the front RB missed the snap count. He flinched, and I killed the play with a flag for false start. The experience WH mentoring me said I should have let the play go and flagged it as illegal motion. I told him that I thought it was a FS since that's "simulating the snap" (intentional or not). Thoughts?

Sounds to me like you got it right. Simulating a snap = false start.

[HLin NC]

I've had the same thing happen to me. That's why I decided long ago to leave a tailback and/or fullback to the WH as you get a different answer from different ones on FS/IM. I'll take the slot or wing back on my side but leave the ones closest for him and the he can do as he wishes.

Originally Posted by HLin NC

I've had the same thing happen to me. That's why I decided long ago to leave a tailback and/or fullback to the WH as you get a different answer from different ones on FS/IM. I'll take the slot or wing back on my side but leave the ones closest for him and the he can do as he wishes.

Agreed. I had the same thing with my WH last fall on one play, where I flagged the guy in motion for a false start because he cut upfield before the snap (his foot was in the neutral zone before the snap) and killed the play. My WH said that was illegal motion and signaled it as such. At halftime, he admonished me about it, saying the guy in motion could never commit false start, only illegal motion. When I mentioned his foot was in the neutral zone before the snap, WH said it don't matter, still illegal motion. My U pulled me aside later and said, don't sweat it, because they both (false start and illegal motion) have the same penalty, just the difference is live ball/dead ball.

[Rich]

I told my wings to shut these things down if they think it needs to be shut down. If it's a back and they don't shut it down, I may or may not depending on the situation, but I have yet to question a wing who has called it a false start.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

Agreed. I had the same thing with my WH last fall on one play, where I flagged the guy in motion for a false start because he cut upfield before the snap (his foot was in the neutral zone before the snap) and killed the play. My WH said that was illegal motion and signaled it as such. At halftime, he admonished me about it, saying the guy in motion could never commit false start, only illegal motion. When I mentioned his foot was in the neutral zone before the snap, WH said it don't matter, still illegal motion. My U pulled me aside later and said, don't sweat it, because they both (false start and illegal motion) have the same penalty, just the difference is live ball/dead ball.

Sounds like encroachment to me. It's usually not a false start if he's already in motion, and it can't be illegal motion until the snap.

2-8 Encroachment: Encroachment occurs when a player is illegally in the neutral zone during the
time interval starting when the ball is marked ready for play and until the ball is snapped or free kicked.

Originally Posted by mbyron

Sounds like encroachment to me. It's usually not a false start if he's already in motion, and it can't be illegal motion until the snap.

2-8 Encroachment: Encroachment occurs when a player is illegally in the neutral zone during the
time interval starting when the ball is marked ready for play and until the ball is snapped or free kicked.

Yeah, I realized that after the game that night. I talked to the WH after the game, and asked if he heard me say that. He said, still no difference.