Tight End illegal shift/ False Start

[BigGref]

Friday Night. 4th and 3, K sets up for the punt. The end, set as a back, takes a step forward (close, but in my judgement didn't feign a snap) and reset. Even though no Defensive player came offsides, the defense was very livid at the no call. Is there anything here, or is the whole argument based on whether or not the End feigned a snap?

[Theisey]

First of all, try not use "no defensive player came offdside" as a criteria for determining whether team-A committed a false start.
That has no bearing.
The sole determination is whether you the official judged that the team-A player simulated the start of the play.

Secondly, the player cannot be an END and a BACK at the same time. If he really was an END and stepped forward, that very well could have been a missed snap count and therefore a false start.
If he really was a BACK, he still can commit a false start, but if his movment forward was slow and easy, all he was probably doing was to shift to a new position. Hopefully not making the formation illegal in the process.

Your final words make me think to know what to look for and either he did or didn't start the play is your judgement call.

[Bob M.]

Originally posted by BigGref
Friday Night. 4th and 3, K sets up for the punt. The end, set as a back, takes a step forward (close, but in my judgement didn't feign a snap) and reset. Even though no Defensive player came offsides, the defense was very livid at the no call. Is there anything here, or is the whole argument based on whether or not the End feigned a snap?

REPLY: Do you think he missed the snap count and came forward as a result? If so, you should have a false start. If you think he was just moving--slowly and smoothly--to a new position, the only concern is whether he was able to set for one second before the snap. If so, you have no foul; if not, you'll have a flag simultaneous with the snap for an illegal shift if he stops but not for the full second, or for illegal motion if he's still moving forward at the snap.

[KWH]

Lets dissect this a little.
You say he takes a step for and reset.
Did he reset to a NEW position? (THIS IS A REQUIRMENT FOR A LEGAL SHIFT!)
1) If your answer is NO you have a false start!
2) If your answer is yes AND he remained motionless for a count or longer you may have had a legal shift, however is it more likely that he missed the snap count. If so, false start!
3) If your answer is YES, and he did not remain motionless for one second prior to the snap, you most likely do not have illegal motion rather you have a false start.

All things considered, IF YOU HAVE A GUT FEELING that the only reason he moved is because he missed the snap count you have a false start!
Nothing good can heppen by allowing this play to continue so shut it down and enforce a false start penalty.
When the whole world knows he missed the snap count, this is the right thing to do!

[ljudge]

Within the past couple of seasons I've been seeing backs sort of quickly coming out of their 3-point stance with a quick forward motion, then a slight turn to the right (or left) and continuing motion. It seems that coaches are hoping to get the defense to jump in that situation...just my opinion. Calling a false start (using 7.1.7b) is looking for trouble but I can't help but notice.

I always let this go but it when it happens I'm just about to blow a whistle for a false start thinking the back missed the snap count and realize that's how they're coaching it.

It's a continuous motion. It's NOT like "uh-oh... better continue my motion so the ref thinks I didn't miss the snap count."

Thoughts? Any of you notice this??? Do any of you call this a foul? Again, I don't as I think it's looking for trouble in doing so.

[Theisey]

quick movement out of a three-point stance by a back is potentially a false start if you so judge that's what the back did.
I've seen it called many times at both the NF and NCAA level. It's a judgement call, not a looking for trouble call. I could care less what the defense does. If I or teh calling official feels it is a missed snap count movement, it's a false start.

[jumpmaster]

Originally posted by ljudge
Within the past couple of seasons I've been seeing backs sort of quickly coming out of their 3-point stance with a quick forward motion, then a slight turn to the right (or left) and continuing motion. It seems that coaches are hoping to get the defense to jump in that situation...just my opinion. Calling a false start (using 7.1.7b) is looking for trouble but I can't help but notice.

I always let this go but it when it happens I'm just about to blow a whistle for a false start thinking the back missed the snap count and realize that's how they're coaching it.

It's a continuous motion. It's NOT like "uh-oh... better continue my motion so the ref thinks I didn't miss the snap count."

Thoughts? Any of you notice this??? Do any of you call this a foul? Again, I don't as I think it's looking for trouble in doing so.

I played ball with a guy that had this movement down to an art. We ran a power-I and he was the wingback. When he would go in motion it was just as you described it, quick step and then a slide to the left or right to go in motion. EVERY time. It was beautiful to watch. Never drew a flag, frequently drew B into the NZ. BTW, I played in TX.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by BigGref
Friday Night. 4th and 3, K sets up for the punt. The end, set as a back, takes a step forward (close, but in my judgement didn't feign a snap) and reset. Even though no Defensive player came offsides, the defense was very livid at the no call. Is there anything here, or is the whole argument based on whether or not the End feigned a snap?

I'm assuming you meant a player that originally was positioned as a back, then moved up to the LS to be a tight end.

Perfectly legal as long as the player, after stepping forward, is set on the LS for at least a second. You could penalize illegal procedure if (a) he drew the defense into the NZ at the snap, (b) he drew the defense to cross the LS before the snap, (c) if he wansn't set for 1 second, or (d) left the LS early at the snap.

[Jim S]

Originally posted by KWH
[B]Lets dissect this a little.
You say he takes a step for and reset.
Did he reset to a NEW position? (THIS IS A REQUIRMENT FOR A LEGAL SHIFT!)

3) If your answer is YES, and he did not remain motionless for one second prior to the snap, you most likely do not have illegal motion rather you have a false start.

No, you would have an illegal shift.

[cmathews]

The philosophy I have had handed down from the NCAA guys I know is that if this motion by a back draws the defense, then it is a false start, because he was close enough to simulating action that it drew the defense....if no one jumps then there is no advantage gained, and therefore no foul....so in short on these questionable situations, I do consider whether or not the defense jumps...

[simpson]

Originally posted by jumpmaster

I played ball with a guy that had this movement down to an art. We ran a power-I and he was the wingback. When he would go in motion it was just as you described it, quick step and then a slide to the left or right to go in motion. EVERY time. It was beautiful to watch. Never drew a flag, frequently drew B into the NZ. BTW, I played in TX.

When I played ball, admittedly it's been a while, we were taught to do this if you missed the count. Not hard to do as long as you're not supposed to get the handoff. Of course, sometimes the motion would be real slow after the initial first step so you would stay close to where you were supposed to go on the play.

As a LJ, I flag 'em if they aren't fluid. IE if they jump and then decide to go in motion and you can see the hesitation. If they jab step forward and continue in motion, I got nothin'.

[Jersey Ref]

if he is back it is simple a shift as long as he is reset for a count. If he is an end he can reset also. If the back moves quickly in aneffort to draw the deffence this is a false start.

ljudge saw post does SJOA mean anything to you and if so my bet is still on you with the rules!