Good Block or penalty?

[Canned Heat]

2 of the 3 I spoke of raised 3 boys that were fortunate enough and gifted enough to play college football. Those guys have seen more football in the coaching and officiating spectrum than you and as much or more than most anyone else on this forum and are in their mid to late 50's and early 60's. One even witnessed some severe head/neck trauma some years back...that's why I got him involved specifically. Man, these old timers have really lost it. What are you, like 19?

You're not here to get direction, to get insight, or to inform and/or help anyone. You're on here to be a pain in the a$$ and start arguments.

You should approach your superiors and tell them that you could ref and coach your games all at the same time. Less expense to the progarm's checkbook but way more in terms of quality officiating, especially when you can clearly see it all...no matter what the angle or distance.

I can't wait for your next video installment: Block in The Back...or No?

Go get your big red rubber nose and catch back up with your circus act.

[bigjohn]

Just so you know Canned heat I will be 48 soon and have been involved in football since I was 8. My dad was a coach so I was going to football practice every day and have been a player or coach for 40 years. I have a bit of experience myself. It has been my experience that most of the elder statesmen of the stripes rarely carry a flag much less call IHC.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

Just so you know Canned heat I will be 48 soon and have been involved in football since I was 8. My dad was a coach so I was going to football practice every day and have been a player or coach for 40 years. I have a bit of experience myself. It has been my experience that most of the elder statesmen of the stripes rarely carry a flag much less call IHC.

To experienced officials, you might as well have said you spent the last 40 years watching it on TV. Do you think you could simply buy a shirt and be as good as people who have been doing it well for years? You say something like that on the sidelines and I have to concentrate so I don't roll my eyes at you.

I'm going to disappear from this thread, too. You, sir, are a troll.

(BTW, I haven't had a particular problem in my games with IHC. I did have a spearing foul in a game that resulted in an ejection a few years ago. And my crew isn't shy about using the flags -- we probably averaged about 10-15 flags a game last season at the varsity level. If we see it, we'll call it. The day I guess at something cause I think I hear helmet-to-helmet contact is the day I hang it up.)

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

I have not said that KWH, I have said that it is possible to use other criteria such as sound and reaction of the two players involved in the contact to judge helmet contact.

Are you seriously suggesting that we go by the way something sounds or the "reactions of the players" to judge IHC? Rather than, you know, what we actually see with our eyes?

Is this some kind of clever/inside joke that I am not picking up on or something?

[bigjohn]

Kid gets up shaking the cobwebs and you "think" maybe it was not quite IHC.

I really do think there are too many OHC not called and too many excuses as to why they are not.

40 years of playing and coaching and studying the rules makes me a clown. OK, I get it now!

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

Kid gets up shaking the cobwebs and you "think" maybe it was not quite IHC.

Sorry coach, I am not sure what you mean. Yeah, kid gets up shaking cobwebs - that doesn't tell me anything about whether there was illegal helmet contact. Kids get up looking a bit dazed for any number of reasons, right?

Are you actually suggesting that in fact we should wait until the kid gets up, realize he look a little punch drunk , then throw a flag, even if we did not see any illegal helmet contact, because the kid looks a bit dazed?

I know I am kinda of belaboring the point, but I am kind of assuming you mean something other than what you appear to be saying, hence my comment about this maybe being some kind of inside joke that I am not getting - I don't really read the forum religiously, so I might have missed something.

[bigjohn]

I am saying, if you are not sure enough to throw the flag but the player who delivers the hit is dazed or someone's helmet comes off or he gets up wobbling and you are not sure that loud clack was helmet on helmet, then it is pretty good bet you should have called IHC. Is it too late? no. Would anyone throw the flag? no. I have had officials tell me that helmet on helmet contact is not a foul. I agree that it could happen incidentally, but most are because a blocker or tackler drove some part of their helmet into an opponent. To say that I don't know what I am talking about because I am just a coach is appalling and to say I am a clown or a troll because I am willing to say that it is not called but a very small percentage of the time is BS. I did post a study by the ATA showing that I am right.

[bigjohn]

http://admin.xosn.com/attachments1/4112.pdf

I know this is NCAA stuff but I would say the numbers are similar. Read the article on IHC




As demonstrated with
other rules, coaches are more
prone to react to penalties
that are called. For example,
if multiple violations such as
offside or holding occur
during the game, those will
generally be addressed by
the coaching staff the
following week to correct
those mistakes and hopefully
prevent them from occurring
again. However, it is human
nature not to address issues
that may not be brought to
our attention. When headdown
contact and spearing
fouls are not enforced and
addressed, student athletes
develop poor habits in
blocking and tackling. If left
uncorrected, those actions
may lead to potentially
serious injuries.

[Berkut]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

I am saying, if you are not sure enough to throw the flag but the player who delivers the hit is dazed or someone's helmet comes off or he gets up wobbling and you are not sure that loud clack was helmet on helmet, then it is pretty good bet you should have called IHC.

If I am not sure enough to throw the flag based on what I saw, then I am not throwing the flag no matter what the players look like when they get up.

And no, I would not at all agree that a kid shaking off cobwebs is a a "pretty good bet" that I should have called IHC. Is the reverse true - if I throw IHC, and then the kids pop up and look fine, should I wave it off?

Is it too late? no. Would anyone throw the flag? no.

I would hope not. Throwing a flag based on how the players respond to a play rather than what you actually see would turn the game into a drama production, rather than a football game. And I suck at evaluating acting ability.

I have had officials tell me that helmet on helmet contact is not a foul.

Helmet on helmet contact happens on most blocks and tackles. Of course it is not a foul. The rulebook certainly does not define helmet on helmet contact as a foul. If it defined it in such a manner, it would certainly make it a lot easier to call, but I think the game of football wouldn't really look much like it does now.

I agree that it could happen incidentally, but most are because a blocker or tackler drove some part of their helmet into an opponent.

No, mostly it happens because when two people collide with one another, their heads tend to bounce around. I don't think I could make certain my helmet does not hit someone else helmet when I am tackling them if I tried.

To say that I don't know what I am talking about because I am just a coach is appalling

I haven't said any such thing.

and to say I am a clown or a troll because I am willing to say that it is not called but a very small percentage of the time is BS.

I didn't say that either.

I did post a study by the ATA showing that I am right.

I do not agree that the study you posted shows at all that your previous comments about how IHC ought to be called is right, in fact, I think it shows the opposite.

[bigjohn]

Editor’s note: This column was
written by Ron Courson, director of
sports medicine at the University of
Georgia.

This Guy must be a Clown.

[Berkut]

I think I am going to pass on this discussion at this point. You seem a lot more interested in making this some kind of personal thing than discussing rules and IHC.

[bigjohn]

My point all along is that it is not getting called when it happens. I hear excuses why it isn't called. I post data to prove it isn't getting called and that is me being personal? I am the one that has been made light of here.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

I am saying, if you are not sure enough to throw the flag but the player who delivers the hit is dazed or someone's helmet comes off or he gets up wobbling and you are not sure that loud clack was helmet on helmet, then it is pretty good bet you should have called IHC.

This, from an officiating stand point, is utter crap. It makes the assumption that a player getting dazed, a helmet coming off, or a loud crack can only happen due to IHC. That is a HUGE assumption that has no basis in fact. You just as well could assume any time a player gets up holding his neck after getting pulled to the ground is because of a face mask grab despite the fact that head can snap around because of hand contact to the helmet or a grab on the inside front of the jersey/shoulder pads rather than grabbing and twisting the mask. The bottom line is we can only call what we see and what we see without a doubt.

The article you posted is revealing in the problem of it not being called enough. We already know IHC is potentially devastating. And the number of times it was called does seem low. Of course the "study" does not tell us how many situations arose in which it could have been called, or how many times the call was passed on because the viewing angle was bad, or the contact was not initiated with the helmet, or the variety of other reasons that you have been told about repeatedly here but refuse to accept why it may not be called.

Do I think IHC is probably not called enough? Absolutely. Do I think the majority of the video examples you have shown us do not rise to the level of it being called for a variety of reasons? Absolutely. You seem to continue with this rant of even if it's close it needs to be called. That's not the way any foul works. Sorry.

[bigjohn]

If we had 11 officials maybe we could get it called, I guess.

[KWH]

Originally Posted by bigjohn

Editor’s note: This column was
written by Ron Courson, director of
sports medicine at the University of
Georgia.

This Guy must be a Clown.

Huh?