Touchdown Signals

[jjrye22]

Originally Posted by Mike L

The LJ should not be straddling the goal line unless he has it in.

Where should the LJ be on a short play close to the goal line if not at the pylon straddling the GL?
Our local mechanics has both LM and LJ have responsibility for the GL if the ball is inside the 10, and release directly to the GL if the ball is snapped inside the 5.

[KWH]

AJMC, aka Alf, aka ALupstateNY,

Before you begin your hollowed routine of lenghty and nefarious attacks against actual on-field officials, perhaps you should consider what some on this board are suggesting, which, quite frankly is, YOU need to look in the mirror!

[Admiral]

Originally Posted by Forksref

How can you say the knee was down if no one saw it down?

If either wing does not have it down and they can't see the ball or knee and the U has it in the EZ, then we have a TD. But the U will not raise his hands. He will communicate to the wings that it is in and they make the decision to signal a TD. He should NEVER raise his hands for the TD signal. He will communicate verbally, either in a conference with the wings or in the procedure I've described below.

This is exactly what happened. The U was certain the ball was in the EZ before the knee touched. The HL could not see the ball cross the goal line because his view was obstructed. When the HL crashed in, the U told him he had the ball in the EZ. HL continued to hold his spot, and called him down.

Originally Posted by Forksref

Our crew will use this procedure: If the U sees the ball in the EZ he says after the ball is dead, "I've got the ball." He will NOT grab his whistle or use any visible signal that the coaches or pressbox can see. Upon hearing him say that, the wings will either signal TD or be marking a spot. Therefore, there will be no contradictory signal that can get the crew in trouble. The last thing we want is for a coach to see him grab his whistle and a wing marking a spot that is short of the GL. If he doesn't say that, then he saw that the ball wasn't in or he didn't see it at all.

Our crew uses this same procedure.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by KWH

AJMC, aka Alf, aka ALupstateNY,

Before you begin your hollowed routine of lenghty and nefarious attacks against actual on-field officials, perhaps you should consider what some on this board are suggesting, which, quite frankly is, YOU need to look in the mirror!

Excuse me, KWH, but what, "lenghty and nefarious attacks against actual on-field officials" are you referring to. Is it against your "code" or otherwise prohibited to offer a different perspective to rigid dictates by an annointed few who believe thay see all things so much clearer than everyone else?

Regarding this discussion, you don't mind focusing on this discussion, a question was raised regarding "mirroring" in a situation which could be understood as multiple officials signalling a TD, which over the years I've noticed is fairly common and consistent, at least at the locations and levels I've worked.

I am in total agreement that "mirroring" a penalty flag, a bean bag or any other signal where you have no idea why the original flag or bag was thrown is a really bad practice and can cause a lot of trouble. But the idea that multiple officials signalling what they have actually seen is wrong, is as bad an idea as "mirroring".

Once again, the terms "never" and "always" only serve to throw mud on the subject. Do you have a problem with my referencing the NFHS Official's Manual, that suggests, basically, if you see it, call it when you don't see it, don't.

Of course we all should understand, when another official calls something the ooposite of what we intend to call, it's better to withhold your signal, go to the other official, review and discuss what each of you have seen and agree on which signal should be correct.

I don't know if it's a universal practice, but what I've been taught about the TD signal, is when you see a TD scored you signal, whether on not someone else has signalled (which you may or may not be aware of). If you believe a TD was not scored (a knee on the 2 yd line) you signal NOTHING. You run to the other official and tell him what you SAW. God wiling, he will join you in reporting the correct call to the Referee.

If you didn't see the score or don't know what happened, get with your crew mates and find out, before even thinking about any signal (which at that point is unnecessary).

Sometimes coaches get confused and upset with changed, delayed or incorrect signals. A good Referee will choose to deal with that and clear things up. A concise, factual explanation will satisfy most coaches, those that are not satisfied will have to learn to deal with disappointment.

If you've got a better way KWH, I'm all ears, if you have something relevant or of some value to offer. I speak with the face in my mirror often, and find he's really hard to BS. Have you taken any time to chat with the face in your mirror?

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by jjrye22

Where should the LJ be on a short play close to the goal line if not at the pylon straddling the GL?
Our local mechanics has both LM and LJ have responsibility for the GL if the ball is inside the 10, and release directly to the GL if the ball is snapped inside the 5.

From the 5 and in (or from wherever your assoc wants it), the LJ should move to the goal line at the snap. Once the play is dead, staying on the goal line as he comes in gives the impression he has the ball in. If coming in with no idea where the ball is, he should be slightly in the field. He can then rule down before in with no complaints or can simply step into the "straddle" spot and signal TD. It's a perception thing. Watch any of the upper level guys and you'll see they never come in on the goal line unless it's to signal TD. The OP'er said his LJ was straddling the line after the play with no idea where the ball was. He shouldn't be there.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by Admiral

This is exactly what happened. The U was certain the ball was in the EZ before the knee touched. The HL could not see the ball cross the goal line because his view was obstructed. When the HL crashed in, the U told him he had the ball in the EZ. HL continued to hold his spot, and called him down.

It's absolutely your HL's call to accept the U's "advise" or not. I just don't understand why he wouldn't if he had no idea where the ball was and the U apparently did. This is not a "who should signal" problem. It appears instead to be an inability to accept help when needed problem by your HL.

[SNG10]

Originally Posted by Mike L

From the 5 and in (or from wherever your assoc wants it), the LJ should move to the goal line at the snap. Once the play is dead, staying on the goal line as he comes in gives the impression he has the ball in. If coming in with no idea where the ball is, he should be slightly in the field. He can then rule down before in with no complaints or can simply step into the "straddle" spot and signal TD. It's a perception thing. Watch any of the upper level guys and you'll see they never come in on the goal line unless it's to signal TD. The OP'er said his LJ was straddling the line after the play with no idea where the ball was. He shouldn't be there.

Thanks for that tip, Mike.

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by jjrye22

Where should the LJ be on a short play close to the goal line if not at the pylon straddling the GL?
Our local mechanics has both LM and LJ have responsibility for the GL if the ball is inside the 10, and release directly to the GL if the ball is snapped inside the 5.

That is our mechanic, too. They should be about 3 yds back from the pylon if the ball is coming their way. The main thing is get to the goal line. You can always work your way back but the goal line is the most important line on the field and someone must be there whenever it is threatened and this includes reverse GL plays because the R won't have the angle on possible safeties.

Some crews will have the wings take the GL when the ball is snapped inside the 15, but that may also change depending on the game situation, too.

[jjrye22]

I see know what Mike was saying from his clarification, and I agree - just didn't understand him in the original post.

A very good point Mike.

[Jim D.]

Originally Posted by Forksref

That is our mechanic, too. They should be about 3 yds back from the pylon if the ball is coming their way. The main thing is get to the goal line. You can always work your way back but the goal line is the most important line on the field and someone must be there whenever it is threatened and this includes reverse GL plays because the R won't have the angle on possible safeties.

Some crews will have the wings take the GL when the ball is snapped inside the 15, but that may also change depending on the game situation, too.

Another tip is to move the goal line sign (the orange pyramid marker) back farther away as you check the field before the game. They often put them too close to the pylon and you can trip over them as you're trying to get a good postion for a play at the pylon. Make sure you have plenty of room to work - you're not going to look too sharp if, as you're backing into position you tumble over one of those and end up making the call while seated.

[Forksref]

Jim makes a good point in moving off the GL to sell your short call. I just added that point to our wing breakout session in our clinic this August.

As for making a call on your butt, it reminds of when I was doing a game as WH on a wet field. There was an interception and I had to get to the GL. On my last stride to the GL my foot slipped and I ended up making the TD signal from my knees. All in all, I thought I had pretty good form and I was expecting the FED to add that signal as an alternative signal the next year.

[MJT]

I haven't read all the posts, but my take on the original question is this. On a running play starting inside about the 12 yard line, either wing who actually sees a player in possession of the ball cross the GL should signal. IMO, you do not mirror, you only signal if you see it.

The B can signal in these situations IMO.
1. If it is a running play from around the 13-20 and the runner is past the LOS and the B can easily get to the GL before the runner he can signal.
2. On a pass play where the ball is caught in the EZ, depending where the B is.

The U can signal in these situations.
NEVER!!!!

[With_Two_Flakes]

Originally Posted by Jim D.

Another tip is to move the goal line sign (the orange pyramid marker) back farther away as you check the field before the game. They often put them too close to the pylon and you can trip over them as you're trying to get a good postion for a play at the pylon. Make sure you have plenty of room to work - you're not going to look too sharp if, as you're backing into position you tumble over one of those and end up making the call while seated.

Absolutely! I make sure the 10...10 markers are a min of 12 feet back, we don't often have the 12 ft limit lines marked on our fields here in the UK. I'll have the G markers even further back. Any stats people, photographers etc, I'll be sure to brief them to stay outside the pyramids, especially at the GL.

As for the tough GL call, I feel it is all about proper communication, particularly eye contact.
The 1st eye contact is wing to wing. A wing can have one of three things -
(1) a TD
(2) a spot short of the GL that he is selling
(3) he has nothing and so is wearing what I call the Forrest Gump expression and should be jogging in toward the pile (on the field side of the GL as mentioned earlier).

The next eye contact is Umpire to wings.
If the Umpire sees (1) or (2), he has nothing to do. If he sees both wings with a Forrest face, that triggers him into action. If he saw the ball over the line, he communicates to the wings (some favour a subtle signal, some do it verbally - whatever you favour in your association). If he has no clue if the ball was over the line, then his action is to start digging!

The final one is Referee to Umpire. If the Refereee sees the Umpire start digging in the pile, that triggers him to get close enough to the pile so that he can help unpile 'em and the Umpire can tell him the result of the play. The last thing you want is an Umpire on his knees giving a TD signal, the Referee can give that on his behalf.

[Reffing Rev.]

I've been trying to find the photo but it is lost.

2006 season, District game, home team needs a win to secure a spot in the state tourney, visiting team is 95% guaranteed at least a wild card on points. I was filling in as LJ on home team sideline with a crew I had never worked with before. Me and HL and BJ were all spot on, our U and R were from Mars I think.

Anyway Great game. Tie game - 7 to play in 4th quarter 3rd and goal inside the 5 for home team. FB dive over right guard. FB ends up 3 yards deep in the end zone. Both HL and I are crashing in with the spot...knee down ball clearly at the 1. U AND R are signalling TD.

So we put the ball 4th and goal at the 1 they kick the FG and on the insuing kickoff give up a TD return and loose the game.

This was a town not far from my work, so I was in the gas station Monday and picked up a newspaper: Front Page photo shows the FB standing in the end zone with the ball and the U and R signalling touchdown and on the very edge you can see me mid-stride at the 1 right hand in the air, left hand pointing at the ground. Caption reads something like: "Although the officials signalled touchdown they shorted 'Bob Smith' on his touchdown run, Eagles settled for FG and ended up loosing, thus being denied their state playoff bid"

I now tell my U that if he has both hands in the air, I'm cutting one of them off.

[parepat]

This video was discussed previously but i think it is relevent to this discussion. I'll give you some background later on. Where did this crew go wrong?



YouTube - Mathews vs. Reserve 2pt. controversy