Can a coach be givin two unsportsmenlike penalties at one time?

[Brandon Kincer]

If a coach comes on to the field and starts screaming and cursing in my face, After I throw the flag can I give him a second if he contiues?

[HLin NC]

Yes, but it will be an extremely rare, maybe once if ever, in a lifetime moment.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

If a coach comes on to the field and starts screaming and cursing in my face, After I throw the flag can I give him a second if he contiues?

I think the way you avoid that necessity is to disengage after throwing the first flag. Essentially, you have to walk away to give the first penalty signal, see that the penalty is enforced, etc.

By doing so you end the incident. There is no need for lecture, admonisment or even explanation, your flag speaks all that is necessary to be said and your signal confirms what has happened. 99.9% of the time, a rational coach will realize he has stepped over the line and accept that the incident is over, perhaps with some, ignored, decreasing mumbling and grumbling by the coach as you walk away.

For that other .01%, who are stupid enough to insist on continuing their "unsportsmanlike conduct", after your flag has signaled the end of the incident, they are creating another, separate, incident and are fully responsible for the consequences that action.

As much as a coach has to consider the consequences of a second flag, so do you. That second flag requires the coach be disqualified (you're not ejecting him, he's disqualifying himself), which is a very serious, and rare, situation (in most leagues). He is required to physically leave the "stadium area", which equates to his being, "sent to his room", which should be embarrassing and shameful to him. This is not baseball, and his behavior is not acceptable as being strategic or motivational.

Someone foolish enough to push something that far, may resist the required disqualification and refuse to leave. In that event you could be faced with the inevitable prospect of eventually forfeiting the game if his refusal to leave persists.

So, knowing full well, that if the situation is pushed to the extreme you will most certainly have the last word, you may want to disengage further, after that first flag, to minimize the chances you are dealing with a complete fool to avoid approaching the need for a nuclear solution.

You have the absolute authority to control how far the situation may go, and when you have absolute authority you should be cautious and reluctant to unleash it, considering that reporting the incident after the game may very well generate sufficient and appropriate consequences for the offending coach.

[Reffing Rev.]

It should also be noted that a coach can be disqualified for a single flagrant unsporting act. He doesn't have to get 2 flags to get ejected. But as was just said, an ejection is a serious and rare occurence in organized (I don't call rec league ball organized) football. So from the OP if that is 1 ongoing flagrant unsporting act I might say he's disqualified with just 1 15 yard penalty.

Though mechanics differ greatly around the nation when a coach crosses a line, you should be mentally prepared to deal with those situations before stepping on the field.

A good white hat and for that matter a good crew will help you out if you get an unruly coach. If you are a wing and a coach crosses a line you flag it and you're looking for R to report your foul, and he will come towards you and he will hopefully address the coach and remind him of the consequences of crossing another line. Additionally a BJ or U should come in to help clean up your sideline while you are reporting the foul, on our crew BJ is responsible to keep a coach from following a wing with an argument, and the same way a lineman will protect a QB, our Umpire takes care of our WH.

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by Reffing Rev.

It should also be noted that a coach can be disqualified for a single flagrant unsporting act. He doesn't have to get 2 flags to get ejected. But as was just said, an ejection is a serious and rare occurence in organized (I don't call rec league ball organized) football. So from the OP if that is 1 ongoing flagrant unsporting act I might say he's disqualified with just 1 15 yard penalty.

Though mechanics differ greatly around the nation when a coach crosses a line, you should be mentally prepared to deal with those situations before stepping on the field.

A good white hat and for that matter a good crew will help you out if you get an unruly coach. If you are a wing and a coach crosses a line you flag it and you're looking for R to report your foul, and he will come towards you and he will hopefully address the coach and remind him of the consequences of crossing another line. Additionally a BJ or U should come in to help clean up your sideline while you are reporting the foul, on our crew BJ is responsible to keep a coach from following a wing with an argument, and the same way a lineman will protect a QB, our Umpire takes care of our WH.

Great advice guys thanks. Has this ever happened to you where the coach became very upset to the point he was delaying progress of the game by argueing with you? I for one have had happen to me and it was a rec league game which also uses NFHS Rulebook. Ill let him say what he needs to say but the second a profane word comes out of his mouth my flag is in the air.

[jaybird]

Sounds like you should get away from rec ball as soon as possible.

[HLin NC]

When you say rec ball are these kids games or adult league? Flag or tackle? If this kind of behavior is being exhibited in front of kids, the league or rec department needs to roll some heads.

Sounds like your rec department has a major problems if they don't clamp down on this kind of behavior. From the descriptions you've given so far, it sounds like you working little more than a zoo.

We call youth football here. The coaches, are for the most part, well-meaning volunteers, most who know little about what they're doing, much less the rules. However, while they may argue some out of ignorance, usually they'll clam up long before we have to use the nuclear option.

As you progress, you'll find the arguments more intelligent, the comments wittier and cutting. The key to survival on the wing is ignore what you can, flag what you must. Anything directed at you personally should earn the flag-cursing or questioning your integrity. Now if the coach says "d---mmit" you might just let that go. If he says "d--- you" then he's gone personal.

Questioning what you saw isn't questioning your integrity. Your eyesight, maybe, your judgment, sure.

Most coaches just want to vent and once you've heard enough about it, there's nothing wrong with saying "Ok coach, I've heard you". That's usually enough to get them to move on to the next topic.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

Great advice guys thanks. Has this ever happened to you where the coach became very upset to the point he was delaying progress of the game by argueing with you? .

The way the rules of the game are written, it's virtually impossible for an official to lose and argument. The official is in absolute control over who gets, "the last word" and how, and when, any discussion ends. With their being such little doubt over which way an argument might end, it makes a lot of sense to avoid ever getting into one, or letting any discussion progress into one.

A coach can't argue with himself, at least not to the point of gaining an advantage, and he's not allowed on the field unless you give him permission. Coaches can make it hard, sometimes, to completely ignore them, but doing so can eliminate a lot of unnecessary agita and is worth the effort. Bear in mind you are in absolute control over when the situation changes from totally ignoring what is said, to scrutinizing every word, so if magic words appear, you control over your hearing them.

Football tends to raise emotions at times causing out of place spontaneous reactions that usually dissapate quickly. As long as they're not excessive, really inflamatory or have become repeated, simply ignoring them is often the best way to deal with them. If they persist, repeat or become excessive those things can be dealt with using existing tools.

A coach looking to argue with an official is an example of bringing a knife to a gun fight and you'll gain more respect by resisting to participate than shooting someone who allowed his emotions to get him in over his head.

[Reffing Rev.]

Originally Posted by Brandon Kincer

Great advice guys thanks. Has this ever happened to you where the coach became very upset to the point he was delaying progress of the game by argueing with you? I for one have had happen to me and it was a rec league game which also uses NFHS Rulebook. Ill let him say what he needs to say but the second a profane word comes out of his mouth my flag is in the air.

Last year I had a coach who had coached his receivers to block downfield if they weren't the intended receiver. I was BJ and had 5 OPI calls, more in one game than I've had the 2 previous seasons. The first OPI our WH forgot to enforce the LOD provision. I was starting my count for the next down and realized it so I blew and came in to ensure proper enforcement, well it took 3 minutes to convince the coach we were right. The WH let the coach take control of the conversation. I would not let that happen, but it was his crew not mine. After all 5 OPI calls the coach demanded an explanation, and our WH had me give it to him. In NE we use a running clock rule in the 2nd half with a 35 point differential. THe clock ran the entire 4th quarter, but our game time was still close to 3 hours. It was rediculous!

I will say, a coach deserves a little explanation, but not a conversation. The rules equip him with the right to request what we call a coach-referee conference, it just costs him a timeout, unless he is right.

[daggo66]

As the WH, if a coach wants an explanation I will ask the wing on his side to give it to him at an opportune time. If he insists on speaking to me, I tell the wing that he is welocme to call a time out and come out on the field otherwise the game shall continue. If he calls the time out he may question the ruling and he will be given the proper explanation. If we misaplied the rule the time out will be charged as an official's time out. If he is wrong he will be charged with a time out. If he is out of time outs he will be assessed a delay of game penalty. If he wishes to argue or dispute a call as opposed to asking a question about the rule, the time out ends and he will be requested to return to his sideline.

[Brandon Kincer]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

When you say rec ball are these kids games or adult league? Flag or tackle? If this kind of behavior is being exhibited in front of kids, the league or rec department needs to roll some heads.

Sounds like your rec department has a major problems if they don't clamp down on this kind of behavior. From the descriptions you've given so far, it sounds like you working little more than a zoo.

We call youth football here. The coaches, are for the most part, well-meaning volunteers, most who know little about what they're doing, much less the rules. However, while they may argue some out of ignorance, usually they'll clam up long before we have to use the nuclear option.

As you progress, you'll find the arguments more intelligent, the comments wittier and cutting. The key to survival on the wing is ignore what you can, flag what you must. Anything directed at you personally should earn the flag-cursing or questioning your integrity. Now if the coach says "d---mmit" you might just let that go. If he says "d--- you" then he's gone personal.

Questioning what you saw isn't questioning your integrity. Your eyesight, maybe, your judgment, sure.

Most coaches just want to vent and once you've heard enough about it, there's nothing wrong with saying "Ok coach, I've heard you". That's usually enough to get them to move on to the next topic.

Both and Both. Kids and Adults/Flag and Tackle.

[jkohls]

I am a FB coach who took up basketball offiating several years ago. It has actually made me better FB coach as I now do not "ride" officials much. Talk with them, yes, but ride them no.

It wasn't always that way. My first year many moons ago, after a TD run by the opposition on which I felt an illegal block below the waist had occurred, I commented "It you don't throw the flag at some point, someone is going to get hurt." Must have been loud because the WH threw the flag and came over to inform me what I had won. I walked to midfield and awaited the kickoff. As the wing ran past me, I said, "You still haven't thrown yours." Two minutes later, as I sat in the lockeroom awaiting the end of the game, I contemplated my mistake. I haven't had flag since in the rest of my years on the sideline. Did I deserve to be booted? Probably not. Should I have kept my mouth shut? Yep. Did it teach me a lesson? Oh yeah. Embarrassment can do that.

[HLin NC]

In that vein JKohls, I was working a non-conference game last year or so where the visiting teams' QB paraded by the home sideline with his #1 finger triumphantly in the air and had some choice words to his hosts after they had scored a TD. The WH promptly flagged the USC and ejected Mr. Visiting QB for taunting.

From that moment on, any bit of exuberence displayed by the home team resulted in Mr. Visiting Headman hollering "excessive celebration, excessive celebration!" Finally after a play he steps onto the field and yells "Where's the flag??!! I landed a beauty at his feet and said "right there coach". He was much relieved when I told the WH, "Nah, make it a sideline warning". He got my message and backed off.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by HLin NC

From that moment on, any bit of exuberence displayed by the home team resulted in Mr. Visiting Headman hollering "excessive celebration, excessive celebration!" Finally after a play he steps onto the field and yells "Where's the flag??!! I landed a beauty at his feet and said "right there coach". He was much relieved when I told the WH, "Nah, make it a sideline warning". He got my message and backed off.

You softie, bending the sideline warning rule for him and all!

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Welpe

You softie, bending the sideline warning rule for him and all!

There's stupid and there's STUPID, and what separates the two is often best confined to what's happening within a specific game. We all have a line that shouldn't be crossed, but that line should be flexible encough to accomodate the circumstances of the game you're working.

It's not usually a good idea to throw a flag, or decide which penalty applies, because of something that happened last weekend.