Opinions on this?

[jaybird]

:d

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by Fedex

I didn't assume that they were varsity officials. I have just never seen an official pinch in that tight before. I guess it caught my attention more than the 8 year old bulldozer. For some reason, it didn't occur to me that they could be first year officials and I apologize for that. If they were vets and just lazy, then that is a different story.

Scott

Different assoc's do things differently. Some have varsity officials required to work the little guys, some don't. Some assoc's have the officials pinch in that far pre-snap, some have you react to what happens after the snap before pinching, some want you to wait until after the play is dead before pinching.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Fedex

I didn't assume that they were varsity officials. I have just never seen an official pinch in that tight before. I guess it caught my attention more than the 8 year old bulldozer. For some reason, it didn't occur to me that they could be first year officials and I apologize for that. If they were vets and just lazy, then that is a different story.

Scott

I guess I am a little confused what pinching has to do with being lazy? It might not be the perfect mechanic, but I do not understand the lazy part of your post.

Peace

[HLin NC]

but here after one has worked Wed-Thurs-Fri, we can do a triple-header youth series on Saturday. Your butt can be dragging by game 3 and you'll pinch, shuffle, lope, whatever, just to stay out there to finish.

Not saying its right but just sayin.....

And there probably are more inexperienced officials in these clips.

[Fedex]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I guess I am a little confused what pinching has to do with being lazy? It might not be the perfect mechanic, but I do not understand the lazy part of your post.

Peace

It's more of if they are just too lazy (or tired) to walk back toward the sidelines and come back in to spot the ball after the play. I guess I still fail to understand the benefit of pinching in that close at the start of the play. I work youth football as well as varsity and can see the play just fine without pinching. I just think that there is a greater benefit of moving in forward from the sideline during the play than to back pedal quickly or *gasp* turn around. However, I will concede the point that some associations teach it that way and that maybe these officials are doing things correctly as taught to them. I also concede that these may be rookie officials just learning their way.

Scott

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Fedex

It's more of if they are just too lazy (or tired) to walk back toward the sidelines and come back in to spot the ball after the play. I guess I still fail to understand the benefit of pinching in that close at the start of the play.
Scott

For at least 40 years, the recommended NFHS positioning for wing officials was, "a minimum of 9 yards outside the widest receiver" and faily recently changed to the current, "straddle the LOS on the sideline". Of course either of these recommended mechanics were intended for VARSITY level HS contests.

The notion that the practicality, or necessity, of these recommendations would apply equally to 8 yr. olds is perposterous. The underlying objective is to simply avoid getting TOO close to the formation to be able to respond to it. If there is a concern about getting outflanked in an 8 year old game, perhaps the wing is not the right position for you.

There are a number of distinct advantages of "pinching in" closer to the formations at the youth levels, among which are; putting a cushion between yourself and overly inquisitive sidelines who believe part of our job is to conduct a running clinic and constanly debate the perfection of every formation and play. It's easier to ignore someone from a distance.

Younger players (not a surprise to parents of younger males) don't always listen or focus as well as their older brothers. There often seems to be a bit more "preventive officiating"needed at lower age games, and helpful suggestions are often heard better by players, and subject to less sideline eavesdropping, from just a few steps further in from the sideline. Converging in on the dead ball situations, and assuring the actions stops when it should can be more of a safety factor with younger players who may not understand, or react to whistles, or commands, as promptly as their older counterparts.

The younger the players, usually, the lower the skill and comprehension levels which can produce more confusion and players being in the wrong place at the wrong time, oblivious to their surroundings. Often, not always, the closer adult supoervision is to the actual action, the more effectiver the supervision.

In reality, there is precious little practical value to positioning wing officials at the same distance from the play as is appropriate for Varsity contests where the recommended positioning has been establised in consideration of the skill level, of Varsity level players, and the complexity and sophistication of Varsity level strategies.

Of course when confronted with any exceptional players or teams, we simply adjust and respond to the game we are working. "Pinching in", at youth level games, is far less an indicator of either inexperience or laziness as it is simply to appropriate adjustment to the job site you're assigned to

[Fedex]

Ok...check out 5:42 and 7:08 of this video. What's the benefit of being this close??? I can understand some pinching at this level, the majority in this video was ok, but these two are the ones that stood out to me.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by Fedex

Ok...check out 5:42 and 7:08 of this video. What's the benefit of being this close??? I can understand some pinching at this level, the majority in this video was ok, but these two are the ones that stood out to me.

Why would anyone want to watch 7:08 minutes of some parents home movies about his 8 yr old's football game? What would you hope to learn from seeing some out of context footage?

[Bob M.]

There are two issues related to being too close, i.e. pinching in too far: (1) yes, you might get in the way and find yourself more focused on getting out of the way than on watching the play in progress, and (2) probably more importantly, closing down your peripheral vision so much that you don't get a good look at the play. We have a fundamental premise that you don't call something unless you see the whole play. It shouldn't come as a surprise that the less peripheral vision you're able to use, the less likely you are to see action from beginning to end.

While I agree that there might be no reason for a wing official to necessarily be off the field in a little kids' game, I would heartily suggest that the wing stay as wide as he can. It will help in that game, and it will help a newer official get used to seeing the game from that perspective so that we he does make the jump to HS and possibly college ball, he'll know what it's like to watch a game with that amount of peripheral vision at his disposal.

[JRutledge]

My point was not how far you should pinch or should you pinch at all. I am just saying that it is very possible and likely that these officials either worked no more than this level, or were not very advanced in their career. That means that either way it goes, they probably do not know much about the mechanics or the philosophies. Just looking at the video that is very obvious to me. I used to work a lot of Pop Warner or Bill George ball and I would work with guys that acted like they knew a lot, but would not know basic stuff.

Peace

[gd191]

In answer to your specific question. The first block at 0:52 by #51 is legal. The blocked player ,once down, attempted to get back up, and as far as #51 knew, would influence the play. As an official, seeing this from the flank (not pinched in so much) and knowing what has occurred, I would simply watch #51 to see how he continues to block. Maybe talk to him. This is after all 8yr old football, our first job, not being a coach, but as an official/adult is to encourage fair play and sportsmanship. If he continues to block in this manner which could be construed as not necessary, talk to his coach, then the player, lastly flag him.
The second block is indeed a flag, not real thought there, flag it. If the player or coach needs an explanation, talk to them.
As for the critique on the officials, well... that was not was billgates51 asked, so why comment on this? But since it was brought up in further discussion, I'll comment too:-) since we do not know these officials, their experience level, their local mechanics etc, none of us can really comment on them specifically. Rather I think the comment directed to them is generally about the mechanics. Did they pinch in too tight, yeah probably? Does it seem kind of "lazy"…. matter of opinion, yeah maybe. But I know after my 6th game of Saturday youth football, I am ready to go home, while I try to give each game my all, I’m kind of tired too.

By the way, this is a very valuable resource for officiating questions. I have seen very good arguments pro and con on many good questions. While I myself have some years officiating under my belt, I value reading others inputs, views, interpretations. I am glad I found this forum.
By the way my favorite Saturday morning answer to pain in the butt coach is "Yeah coach I saw it, you got nothing"

Happy conditioning folks! Have a great 09-10 season.

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am just saying that it is very possible and likely that these officials either worked no more than this level, or were not very advanced in their career. That means that either way it goes, they probably do not know much about the mechanics or the philosophies.
Peace

Wow, I guess officiating is actually a lot different in some parts of the country. In some parts, the same officials who work local College, HS (at all levels) and Semi-Pro are actually the same officials who work youth leagues.

You might be suprised that some of these officials know a great deal about, have been exposed to all the learning aids about mechanics and philosophies on a consistent basis for decades and take their craft seriously. They actually enjoy mixing with newer officials and passing on some of the practical lessons they've learned over extended careers.

Football is a game of extreme physical interaction and contact played by little children all the way up to large grown men, which has a lot to do with their being 3 separate, major rules codes to deal with some of the obvious differences in the physical makeup of the participants.

Consistency in mechanics is certainly an important consideration, but no more important than recognizing the circumstances of the game you are actually working and applying the intent of those mechanics to the level of the contest at hand. Point of fact, there is very little comparable about football played by 8yr olds, even though they're dressed in pads, and HS football, even at sub-varsity levels. (or your HS program is in deep trouble).
All football fields are the same size, but the players aren't, which can require some adjustment to gain a similar, recommended perspective.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Wow, I guess officiating is actually a lot different in some parts of the country. In some parts, the same officials who work local College, HS (at all levels) and Semi-Pro are actually the same officials who work youth leagues.

I did not say that this applied to everyone. But I highly doubt someone that is working college is available to work much youth ball for the simple reason you cannot be in two places at the same time. That being said, it was rather clear these were not big time high school officials, let alone worked college.

Peace

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not say that this applied to everyone. But I highly doubt someone that is working college is available to work much youth ball for the simple reason you cannot be in two places at the same time. That being said, it was rather clear these were not big time high school officials, let alone worked college.

Peace

I guess it all depends on where you are. The age old suggestion to "do like a Roman" only applied when you might happen to be in Rome. Further East, College games are usually played on Saturday afternoons. Youth Football games are primarily played throughout Sunday afternoons and evenings, although some are played Saturday evenings at 5:00 & 7:00, or 6:00 & 8:00pm and occassionally on weeknights at 6;00pm.

Again, back East, many of the same officials belong to both ECAC and the local HS Assn., that services HS and Youth leagues and services semi-pro leagues and don't have college, HS or semi-pro assignments that conflict with youth leagues every week. Like most areas, it boils down to availability and interest and many enjoy an infinite mix of available choices.

Amazing how often people assume "one size fits all" when in reality that hardly ever applies.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by ajmc

I guess it all depends on where you are. The age old suggestion to "do like a Roman" only applied when you might happen to be in Rome. Further East, College games are usually played on Saturday afternoons. Youth Football games are primarily played throughout Sunday afternoons and evenings, although some are played Saturday evenings at 5:00 & 7:00, or 6:00 & 8:00pm and occassionally on weeknights at 6;00pm.

That sounds great. But you have completely missed the point. It is really not whether officials can or cannot work games at all levels. It is clear by the mechanics, the look of the officials and they way they moved they obviously are not working all levels as was assumed by a previous point. I was stating that that these officials were not automatically high school or college officials as assumed by a previous poster, which is why I made the comments in the first place.

Originally Posted by ajmc

Again, back East, many of the same officials belong to both ECAC and the local HS Assn., that services HS and Youth leagues and services semi-pro leagues and don't have college, HS or semi-pro assignments that conflict with youth leagues every week. Like most areas, it boils down to availability and interest and many enjoy an infinite mix of available choices.

Amazing how often people assume "one size fits all" when in reality that hardly ever applies.

I did not ask you what they did out East. And what someone does in a particular area is also not relevant to my comments. I was making it clear that these officials were likely not working all levels. I work in many basketball camps as a clinician and help train younger/newer officials in basketball. We joke all the time that we can tell what someone's experience is by just watching them run up and down the court just a few times. I think what I saw was a similar reaction that I got. Because college officials would not be doing some of these things whether they were working youth ball or not in my opinion.

Peace