Translation issues

[dvasques]

Originally Posted by Forksref

The eligibility of a team A player to touch or recover the free kick has nothing to do with blocking an opponent from getting to the ball.

Team A players could block B players and interfere with their getting the ball until it has gone 10 yds. wherein the A players could then recover it. (after it has touched the ground AND gone 10 yds.)

The rules are saying otherwise. That's where my doubt is. Rule 6-1-2-g says no Team A player may block an oponent until Team A is eligible to touch the ball.
And rule 6-1-3-a says Team A becomes eligible when Team B touches the ball; the ball breaks the plan and remains beyound Team B restraining line or; the ball touches the any player, the ground, an official or anything beyond Team B restraining line.

Which, in my understanding, means Team A can't block Team B until the ball travels 10 yards.

My first thought, when I read Rule 6-1-3-a, was that maybe it was supposed to read like this:
The ball touches any player, the ground or an official. Or touches anything beyond 10 yeard. But that's not the case because Team A doesn't become eligible if a Team A player touches the ball before it travels 10 yards.
Then I came to the conclusion that Team A can't block Team B on an onside kick until the ball travels 10 yards

[Forksref]

Originally Posted by dvasques

The rules are saying otherwise. That's where my doubt is. Rule 6-1-2-g says no Team A player may block an oponent until Team A is eligible to touch the ball.
And rule 6-1-3-a says Team A becomes eligible when Team B touches the ball; the ball breaks the plan and remains beyound Team B restraining line or; the ball touches the any player, the ground, an official or anything beyond Team B restraining line.

Which, in my understanding, means Team A can't block Team B until the ball travels 10 yards.

My first thought, when I read Rule 6-1-3-a, was that maybe it was supposed to read like this:
The ball touches any player, the ground or an official. Or touches anything beyond 10 yeard. But that's not the case because Team A doesn't become eligible if a Team A player touches the ball before it travels 10 yards.
Then I came to the conclusion that Team A can't block Team B on an onside kick until the ball travels 10 yards

I don't know where you are getting your rule citations because there is no 6-1-3a or 6-1-2g.

If you look at 6-5-6, it starts out by saying "While any free kick is in FLIGHT in or beyond the neutral zone..., K shall not: a. Touch the ball or R unless blocked into the ball or R, or to ward off a blocker; or b. Obstruct R's path to the ball. (This is the section on kick catching interference.)

Thus, if the ball is kicked on the ground, these restrictions do not apply and K players can block R players.

[TXMike]

Originally Posted by dvasques

The rules are saying otherwise. That's where my doubt is. Rule 6-1-2-g says no Team A player may block an oponent until Team A is eligible to touch the ball.
And rule 6-1-3-a says Team A becomes eligible when Team B touches the ball; the ball breaks the plan and remains beyound Team B restraining line or; the ball touches the any player, the ground, an official or anything beyond Team B restraining line.

Which, in my understanding, means Team A can't block Team B until the ball travels 10 yards.

My first thought, when I read Rule 6-1-3-a, was that maybe it was supposed to read like this:
The ball touches any player, the ground or an official. Or touches anything beyond 10 yeard. But that's not the case because Team A doesn't become eligible if a Team A player touches the ball before it travels 10 yards.
Then I came to the conclusion that Team A can't block Team B on an onside kick until the ball travels 10 yards

The rule references are correct for NCAA.

The only way Team A would be eligible to block Team B before the ball goes 10 yards is if Team B comes forward and touches the ball in that first 10 yards. By doing that they "give permission" to Team A to block them.

Great to hear you are continuing the move to NCAA rules from those NFL ones.

[Robert Goodman]

One thing I'd have to ask is what dvasques needs to do here. Is your job to translate the NCAA football rule book so you can present it as, "Here is the authentic current NCAA football rule book translated into Portugese."? Or are you operating as a "rules committee of 1", and just doing your own research? That is, do you have to "sell" the product to someone as, "Here is what has been formulated and tested by a large organiz'n for football?" Because if not, if you have nobody to answer to, why not just think it thru (preferably, but not necessarily, in consultation with others) and decide what makes sense for you, without regard to exactly what the existing rule book says?

For 80 years in American football, team B/R has been given opportunity to catch the free kicked ball, so that opp'ty is not to be interfered with. The different codes have slightly different criteria as to when that opportunity exists. In Canadian football there is no such opp'ty, but for over 50 years the receiving team but not the kicking team at a kickoff has been allowed to block before possession of the ball is gained. Why not just use that knowledge and formulate your own criteria?

Robert in the Bronx

[ajmc]

Just for the record, there does not appear to be any restriction againsts K blocking R before a grounded free kick has traveled past R's free kick line under the NFHS code.

If any free kick is touched by K, before it travels past the R free kick line, it is "first touching" and R will have the option to select possession at that point. (unless R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul, or if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down. NF: 6.1.6)

[kfo9494]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Just for the record, there does not appear to be any restriction againsts K blocking R before a grounded free kick has traveled past R's free kick line under the NFHS code.

If any free kick is touched by K, before it travels past the R free kick line, it is "first touching" and R will have the option to select possession at that point. (unless R touches the kick and thereafter during the down commits a foul, or if the penalty is accepted for any foul committed during the down. NF: 6.1.6)

So-- if R get blocked into the ball, by K, before it goes 10 yards (in NFHS) what is the correct call?

[ajmc]

Originally Posted by kfo9494

So-- if R get blocked into the ball, by K, before it goes 10 yards (in NFHS) what is the correct call?

You might look at NF:6.1.5, that advises; "Any K player may recover the ball before it goes beyond R's free kick line if it is touched first by any receiver. Such touching in the neutral zone by R is ignored if it is caused by K pushing or blocking R into contact with the ball or if K muffs the ball into contact with R."

[kfo9494]

Thanks, Did not have my books but that got me to thinking. And as usual, I think too much.

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

One thing I'd have to ask is what dvasques needs to do here. Is your job to translate the NCAA football rule book so you can present it as, "Here is the authentic current NCAA football rule book translated into Portugese."? Or are you operating as a "rules committee of 1", and just doing your own research? That is, do you have to "sell" the product to someone as, "Here is what has been formulated and tested by a large organiz'n for football?" Because if not, if you have nobody to answer to, why not just think it thru (preferably, but not necessarily, in consultation with others) and decide what makes sense for you, without regard to exactly what the existing rule book says?

For 80 years in American football, team B/R has been given opportunity to catch the free kicked ball, so that opp'ty is not to be interfered with. The different codes have slightly different criteria as to when that opportunity exists. In Canadian football there is no such opp'ty, but for over 50 years the receiving team but not the kicking team at a kickoff has been allowed to block before possession of the ball is gained. Why not just use that knowledge and formulate your own criteria?

Robert in the Bronx

Not to criticize this remark Robert, but have you ever been involved in a process where you had to translate something from English to another language? There are many considerations when one wants to maintain the dynamic equivalency from the source language once it's translated into the target language. Some rules in football would require lots of expansion if I were to translate it into American Sign Language, just to maintain that dynamic equivalency.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

Not to criticize this remark Robert, but have you ever been involved in a process where you had to translate something from English to another language? There are many considerations when one wants to maintain the dynamic equivalency from the source language once it's translated into the target language. Some rules in football would require lots of expansion if I were to translate it into American Sign Language, just to maintain that dynamic equivalency.

OK, but I hope you understand that none of that has anything to do with what I was asking dvasques.

[dvasques]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

OK, but I hope you understand that none of that has anything to do with what I was asking dvasques.

Just for the record, what I'm trying to do here in Brasil is implement the rules that are used by IFAF. I've been told by their Head of Officiating that their rules is the NCAA with a few changes. So the first thing I'm doing is translating the NCAA rules first. Then I'll make the IFAF changes.
And later, we will make some more changes for our beach football (that has no pads and no drawns line on the ground). TXMike knows what I'm talking about...

And thanks everyone for the responses. Really helpfull.

[dvasques]

NCAA book, Rule 7-3-4 says:

No eligible offensive receiver who goes out of bounds during a down shall touch a legal forward pass in the field of play or end zones or while airborne until it has been touched by an oponent or official

And Rule 7-3-5 says:

When a Team B player or an official touches a legal forward pass, all players become eligible


Now, I'm coming from NFL rules and, unless I'm mistaken, a Team A eligible player who's gone out of bounds would regain his eligibility once either an official, Team B player or another Team A eligible player touched the ball.

Not like this in the NCAA?

[Theisey]

Originally Posted by dvasques

NCAA book, Rule 7-3-4 says:
No eligible offensive receiver who goes out of bounds during a down shall touch a legal forward pass in the field of play or end zones or while airborne until it has been touched by an opponent or official

And Rule 7-3-5 says:
When a Team B player or an official touches a legal forward pass, all players become eligible

Now, I'm coming from NFL rules and, unless I'm mistaken, a Team A eligible player who's gone out of bounds would regain his eligibility once either an official, Team B player or another Team A eligible player touched the ball.

Not like this in the NCAA?

You have it right.. that team-A player can now touch the ball.

[dvasques]

yes, but another Team A eligible player touching the ball does not make every player eligible, right?

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by dvasques

Just for the record, what I'm trying to do here in Brasil is implement the rules that are used by IFAF. I've been told by their Head of Officiating that their rules is the NCAA with a few changes. So the first thing I'm doing is translating the NCAA rules first. Then I'll make the IFAF changes.

Why not obtain IFAF's rules in some language and translate that? Or does IFAF not have their own complete written set of rules in any language, just incorporating NCAA by reference?

And later, we will make some more changes for our beach football (that has no pads and no drawns line on the ground).

Well, certainly one of the lines does not need to be drawn...but it keeps moving!

Robert in the Bronx