mechanic question: dead ball vs. down indication

[chymechowder]

This isn't a big deal, just something I've wondered about for a while and can't seem to get an answer.

I'm a linesman/line judge in Mass. high school. My question is:

Is there a standard for WHEN you're supposed to indicate the down? Specifically, when do you change from a dead ball signal to a down-indicating signal?

Say it's first and ten. A22 carries for 7 yards to my side of the field; he's tackled halfway between the hash and the sideline. I get the end of the run, square up on the sideline, come in a few steps and hold my spot.

At this point I've got my hand up for a dead ball. After the umpire spots the ball, I'll change to a 2nd down signal above my head and walk backwards to the sideline.

Now, I know alot of guys will just come in from the get go with the 2nd down signal. (they don't do the dead ball signal).

Is one way preferable over the other?

(It can be different depending on the play, I realize. Like if there's a fumble but Team A recovers, you might signal (and announce) 2nd down the whole time to indicate who recovered. Or if you KNOW he's a yard short of the line to gain, you might only do the 2nd down to tell the ref he's short and we don't need to take a look with regard to the sticks.)

But I'm talking about "garden variety" plays. Not a big deal, I know. Just wondering. Thanks.

[JRutledge]

Unless you have a specific directive in your association or in their mechanics, then you do not give a "dead ball signal." That is only an NCAA or NFL mechanic. And those mechanics are used because the signals start the play clock. So there is no "transition" to make. And I have never heard that much discussion at those levels about what you want to know.

When the play is over you communicate the down to your partners. Nothing more to do than that.

Peace

[kdf5]

I'm thinking Massachusetts is one of two states who don't belong to the NF. Is that right? If so, they use the NCAA code or some modification. If these statements are true then they might use the raised hand/play clock. I think Texas is the other non-NF state.

[JugglingReferee]

CANADIAN MECHANIC:

Our play clock works differently than the US PC and as a result, we do not have a need to raise our arm when we rule the play dead and mark forward progress. However, we do square up on the sideline (with the odd exception), and use our whistle. If necessary, stop the clock.

At this point, there are many styles you will see out there, but the general process is to wait for the official signal from the Referee to each sideline before giving the next-down signal to your partners/crew. This could be because we place the onus on the R to prevent each multiple sources of incorrect signals.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by kdf5

I'm thinking Massachusetts is one of two states who don't belong to the NF. Is that right? If so, they use the NCAA code or some modification. If these statements are true then they might use the raised hand/play clock. I think Texas is the other non-NF state.

Correct on both accounts. MA is one, and the other is Texas.

[Blue37]

We use the raised hand to indicate "I have a progress spot." It is hard for the end men to see each other through the pile, but you can see the raised hand. If they both have it up, one defers to the other so we do not have two different spots.

Edited to add:
The only time we indicate the down over our heads is if the ball came loose and the offense recovered.

As to your question on transition, I would drop my hand as, or before, I turned. As I was going to the sideline, I would give the down at eye level, not over my head. Personally, I would look goofy jogging toward the sideline with my hand over my head.

[DesertZebra]

Originally Posted by Blue37

As to your question on transition, I would drop my hand as, or before, I turned. As I was going to the sideline, I would give the down at eye level, not over my head. Personally, I would look goofy jogging toward the sideline with my hand over my head.

It's good practice to never turn your back to the field.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by DesertZebra

It's good practice to never turn your back to the field.

I was thinking the same thing when I read that. That is one of my biggest pet peaves and my HL does it all the time. I guess it's what your taught but I was taught from day 1 to always walk backwards to the sidelines in this situation. There are very few instances where you will turn your back to the field as a wing.

[Theisey]

While it isn't totally wrong to indicate the play is over, unless you are using the signal to start the 40 second play clock, it would be best to not give that signal at the high school level regardless of the rule code (ncaa vs nf).
What does your state association say to do?

Wait a few seconds after the play is over, keep on officiating (dead ball stuff) then slowly raise your hand to show the next down. If you have a clear first down, of course you'd be killing the clock before any of this.

Should you have a foul after the play, you'll know it's a dead ball foul from other indications, like a whistle for one rather looking around to see if someone had put his hand in the air.

[Blue37]

Originally Posted by DesertZebra

It's good practice to never turn your back to the field.

Once everything has settled down, and the teams are on their side of the LOS, I will most definitely turn my back to the field to ensure the chain crew is properly positioned. The R, U, and BJ can keep things under control while the teams are huddled.

[DesertZebra]

Originally Posted by Blue37

Once everything has settled down, and the teams are on their side of the LOS, I will most definitely turn my back to the field to ensure the chain crew is properly positioned. The R, U, and BJ can keep things under control while the teams are huddled.

Again, not trying to be an a-hole, but you really should not turn your back to the field. If you're concerned about your chains, a little turn of the head (and an effective pre-game) can solve that. It's really pretty simple.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Unless you have a specific directive in your association or in their mechanics, then you do not give a "dead ball signal." That is only an NCAA or NFL mechanic.

This is funny because at one time (before the current rules re the play clock) it was only in H.S. games (some Fed, some not) that I saw such a signal routinely given. I'm sure it's appreciated by deaf players. It's the oldest signal in football.

What happened to the live ball possession signal? Used to be that when the ball was turned over during a down, and at other times when there might be confusion over possession, officials would immediately point toward the attacking end line. Of course that was at a time when there was a big difference between what the offense and defense could do with their hands. It was distinguished from a "new series" signal by its absence of the opposite hand pointing straight up with 1 finger.

Robert in the Bronx

[Ed Hickland]

Originally Posted by Robert Goodman

This is funny because at one time (before the current rules re the play clock) it was only in H.S. games (some Fed, some not) that I saw such a signal routinely given. I'm sure it's appreciated by deaf players. It's the oldest signal in football.

What happened to the live ball possession signal? Used to be that when the ball was turned over during a down, and at other times when there might be confusion over possession, officials would immediately point toward the attacking end line. Of course that was at a time when there was a big difference between what the offense and defense could do with their hands. It was distinguished from a "new series" signal by its absence of the opposite hand pointing straight up with 1 finger.

Robert in the Bronx

The dead ball signal dates back to the beginning of football as we know it. Originally, only the referee had a whistle. The other officials would give the dead ball signal and the R would blow the whistle.

[DesertZebra]

Originally Posted by Ed Hickland

The dead ball signal dates back to the beginning of football as we know it. Originally, only the referee had a whistle. The other officials would give the dead ball signal and the R would blow the whistle.

Wow, I did not know that. Thanks, Ed

[Texas Aggie]

I don't know about Mass., but Texas HS has not adopted the 40/25 clock rule. We use the 2005 timing rules and probably will indefinitely. However, our wings typically raise a hand to eye or possibly top of the head level (as opposed to straight up like a basketball official signaling a violation) with the next down. I'm not sure its an actual mechanic, but its something we've done for a while.