Fly Ball Mechanic Question

[MGKBLUE]

Situation is R1 at 1B. Batter hits a fly ball down the left field line. BU comes inside the diamond to check the tag up of the runner. Left fielder bobbles the ball three or four time before making the catch. Runner takes off on the first touch and is halfway to second before I as the PU call out on the catch.

Defensive team appeals that the runner left early, BU did not see the bobble and calls R1 out.

Offensive coach comes out and talks to the BU, who comes to me for help.

Conversation:

BU: The runner was halfway down the line when you call the batter out. Clearly she left early.

PU: Maybe, the ball was bobbled by the left field three or four time before the catch was made. Did you see whether the runner was off the base when the ball was first touched by the left fielder?

BU: No, I was waiting for your out call.

PU: Oh @@@@ I think you have to call her safe.

Result, R1 called safe as the BU never saw an out.

Question: After looking at the ASA and High School Mechanics Manual I cannot find where this type of situation is addressed.

What are your mechanics in this situation?

[MNBlue]

I don't button hook.

Stay out and keep the ball, the runners and the bases in front of you.

If F7 catches the ball, you have tag up responsibility and the runner is in front of you. If the runner advances, you advance with her. If for some reason, she advances to third, PU should be up the line to make that call.

If F7 doesn't catch the ball, stay put and observe advancing runners, and be prepared to make a call at second base.

If the BU button hooks, there is no way to observe first touch and know when the runner leaves in relation to first touch.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

I don't button hook.

Stay out and keep the ball, the runners and the bases in front of you.

If F7 catches the ball, you have tag up responsibility and the runner is in front of you. If the runner advances, you advance with her. If for some reason, she advances to third, PU should be up the line to make that call.

If F7 doesn't catch the ball, stay put and observe advancing runners, and be prepared to make a call at second base.

If the BU button hooks, there is no way to observe first touch and know when the runner leaves in relation to first touch.

ASA Umpire Manual section says that BU has tag up responsibility (see page 212). On page 211of the ASA book it says on routine fly balls to outfield the BU will move inside the diamond watching assigned tag ups. Inside/Outside Theory.

It says that BU has R1 all the way to 3B. So if you stay out, you can't reasonably get them to 3B.

Gotta come in and do the best you can.

In scenario IMO they handled it perfectly by getting together and getting the call right.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

...In scenario IMO they handled it perfectly by getting together and getting the call right.

I think they guessed, at least as I read the OP.

It is true MGKBLUE states that she left on the first touch, but in retelling the conversation between him, as PU, and his partner, it seems neither of them knew for sure when she left, only that the ball was bobbled and she COULD have left after the first touch.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I think they guessed, at least as I read the OP.

It is true MGKBLUE states that she left on the first touch, but in retelling the conversation between him, as PU, and his partner, it seems neither of them knew for sure when she left, only that the ball was bobbled and she COULD have left after the first touch.

After I read your post then re-read the OP you are right...they guessed. I like to subscribe to the when in doubt call them out motto but that gets you in a lot of trouble

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

ASA Umpire Manual section says that BU has tag up responsibility (see page 212). On page 211of the ASA book it says on routine fly balls to outfield the BU will move inside the diamond watching assigned tag ups. Inside/Outside Theory.

I understand what the ASA book says. I just happen to disagree with it.

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

It says that BU has R1 all the way to 3B. So if you stay out, you can't reasonably get them to 3B.

Actually, it says the BU has BR or the single runner all the way to 3rd base. When the fly ball to F7 is hit, PU is coming up the line to make the call on the catch/no catch (as opposed to standing behind the catcher). With the PU already almost half way to third, why not let the PU take the R1 into third (which, is extremely unlikely, unless the relay from F7 gets away).

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Gotta come in and do the best you can.

If you want to work that way, that is fine with me. If the BU comes inside, he is either losing sight of the ball, and/or the runners. I would rather be able to see what I am responsible for calling.

[scroobs]

what about keeping an eye on the ball and runner while you're coming in to button hook? if you have a perspective on the ball and the runner you should be able to see the catch\touch and then immediately direct your attention to the runner...having the ball and runner lined up in your periphal vision would be even better.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

Actually, it says the BU has BR or the single runner all the way to 3rd base.

Which would be R1 on 1B

When the fly ball to F7 is hit, PU is coming up the line to make the call on the catch/no catch (as opposed to standing behind the catcher). With the PU already almost half way to third, why not let the PU take the R1 into third (which, is extremely unlikely, unless the relay from F7 gets away).

Because the PU is covering home

If you want to work that way, that is fine with me. If the BU comes inside, he is either losing sight of the ball, and/or the runners. I would rather be able to see what I am responsible for calling.

Which is the RUNNER, not the ball. A lazy umpire has to give up something. Someone who hustles inside can easily get deep enough to see a catch and runner movement with peripheral vision, it isn't that difficult. Another option is to come inside closer to the runner, but you are really going to have to bust down to 2B for a possible play.

BTW, can you tell me how you have a runner on 1b, a ball to left field and have both in front of you when you are in the B?

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

If you want to work that way, that is fine with me. If the BU comes inside, he is either losing sight of the ball, and/or the runners. I would rather be able to see what I am responsible for calling.

I understand your differences and don't disagree with some of them.

OP asked what the ASA Mechanic was and I stated it. I try to go "by the book" but there are always situations were you have to deviate from it.

If you are going to go deviate I have no problem with it but it should be discussed in your pregame and/or verbalized when it happens so your partner knows.

[CecilOne]

My first reaction to the Q in the OP is WATCH THE PLAY!

Agree that the catch and runner would be better seen from a B1 position, but it is non-book. An idea to think about, although essentially "working the rim" which we generally disagreed with on a double/triple.

Even so, if there is a play at 2nd coming from LF, inside is needed.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

Even so, if there is a play at 2nd coming from LF, inside is needed.

I have, just for the heck of it, worked the NCAA two man mechanic on base hit to Left side. They have you stay out and follow BR into 2nd from the outside. It does work and saves a lot of running. Never had a problem getting into position. The only problem is trying to follow BR into 3rd. Can't do it...I'm too darn slow! Your PU would have to take the call at 3rd. But ASA says to come inside so I will. I just did it the other way to see what it was like.

If you have a game and want to try it I say do it...just pregame with your partner so he knows!

[roadking]

New Guy? If the BU stays outside the baseline, does the BU base the timing of the tag up on the PU catch signal?

[Steve M]

Originally Posted by roadking

New Guy? If the BU stays outside the baseline, does the BU base the timing of the tag up on the PU catch signal?

Better not! Watch the ball until just before the touch/catch, then watch the runner(s). There is a delay between the actual touch and the signal, let alone hearing a verbal.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

I don't button hook.

Stay out and keep the ball, the runners and the bases in front of you.

Wow, thats a pretty neat magic trick. How do you do all those 3?


Yes, you do come in and button hook OR (especially 3 man) you go out on it. That is the mechanic.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

I understand what the ASA book says. I just happen to disagree with it.

.......................

If you want to work that way, that is fine with me. If the BU comes inside, he is either losing sight of the ball, and/or the runners. I would rather be able to see what I am responsible for calling.

Your mechanic has one little ole flaw though.

Its physically impossible to stay out on a fly ball to the outfield and keep the bases and runners in front of you while watching the ball.

Stick with the ASA mechanic, its at least possible.