Ravens/Steelers game

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

because this specific rules applies to tackling maybe??? last time i checked, the defense was responsible for that. As I posted earlier, watch the replay then come back and tell me the defender does not lead with the crown of his helmet and makes contact with his helmet before his shoulder. FYI, the objectivity comment relates to all the Raven/Steeler fans here, not just JR's.

Therein lies the problem, you don't understand the rules or their interpretations.

If you watch objectively you'll see the tackler lead with his shoulder. The reason the runner got hit in the head is because he put his head there.

Football is a sport filled with violent contact. Not all of that contact is illegal.

btw - I don't know if JR is or isn't a fan of either team and nothing stated in his post gives reason to believe he isn't being objective.

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Therein lies the problem, you don't understand the rules or their interpretations.

If you watch objectively you'll see the tackler lead with his shoulder. The reason the runner got hit in the head is because he put his head there.

Football is a sport filled with violent contact. Not all of that contact is illegal.

btw - I don't know if JR is or isn't a fan of either team and nothing stated in his post gives reason to believe he isn't being objective.

Simple question for both of you. Watch this cliphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ssVchGUm0)
particularly the part starting at the 50 second point, and tell me how what you just watched was not leading with his helmet. Let's take your spin on it. If MaGahee hadnt "put his head in there", where would Clark's helmet have landed? Oh, that's right, it wasnt his helmet, it was his shoulder, I forgot.

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

13. A tackler using his helmet to butt, spear, or ram an opponent.

14. Any player who uses the top of his helmet unnecessarily.

These are two rules infractions resulting in a 15 yard penatly. The replay clearly shows Clark leads with the crown of his helmet, not his shoulder as some here would like to believe, striking MaGahee between the front and side of his helmet. Those two rules apply to defensive players for those of you wondering why runningbacks/recievers can lead with their helmet and defenders can't.

References please?

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by daggo66

References please?

Dagg,

This is the site I initially found when tracking down the rules. http://football.calsci.com/TheRules3.html

I've since found a site that actually has the official NFL rulebook(2006)
http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/...20RULEBOOK.pdf

Specifically, Rule 8 item g. page 82, that specific rules reads:

Impermissible
Use of
Helmet and
Facemask

( g) using any part of a player’s helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/“hairline” parts)
or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily; although such
violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent,
game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those
players who are in virtually defenseless postures (e.g., a player in the act of or just after
throwing a pass, a receiver catching or attempting to catch a pass, a runner already in the
grasp of a tackler, a kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air, or a player
on the ground at the end of a play). All players in virtually defenseless postures are protected
by the same prohibitions against use of the helmet and facemask that are described
in the roughing-the-passer rules (see Article 11, subsection 3 below of this
Rule 12, Section 2);

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

13. A tackler using his helmet to butt, spear, or ram an opponent.

14. Any player who uses the top of his helmet unnecessarily.

These are two rules infractions resulting in a 15 yard penatly. The replay clearly shows Clark leads with the crown of his helmet, not his shoulder as some here would like to believe, striking MaGahee between the front and side of his helmet. Those two rules apply to defensive players for those of you wondering why runningbacks/recievers can lead with their helmet and defenders can't.

Originally Posted by daggo66

References please?

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Dagg,

This is the site I initially found when tracking down the rules. http://football.calsci.com/TheRules3.html

I've since found a site that actually has the official NFL rulebook(2006)
http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/...20RULEBOOK.pdf

Specifically, Rule 8 item g. page 82, that specific rules reads:

Impermissible
Use of
Helmet and
Facemask

( g) using any part of a player’s helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/“hairline” parts)
or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily; although such
violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent,
game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those
players who are in virtually defenseless postures (e.g., a player in the act of or just after
throwing a pass, a receiver catching or attempting to catch a pass, a runner already in the
grasp of a tackler, a kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air, or a player
on the ground at the end of a play). All players in virtually defenseless postures are protected
by the same prohibitions against use of the helmet and facemask that are described
in the roughing-the-passer rules (see Article 11, subsection 3 below of this
Rule 12, Section 2);

Great, you found a rule but it still doesn't back your assertion the the offense can not be guilty of leading with the helmet.

Can you share with is what clinics you've attended where these rules have been discussed and interpreted? (Joe Buck, Troy Aikman, Phil Simms, John Madden and the like are not credible sources.)

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Dagg,

This is the site I initially found when tracking down the rules. http://football.calsci.com/TheRules3.html

I've since found a site that actually has the official NFL rulebook(2006)
http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/...20RULEBOOK.pdf

Specifically, Rule 8 item g. page 82, that specific rules reads:

Impermissible
Use of
Helmet and
Facemask

( g) using any part of a player’s helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/“hairline” parts)
or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily; although such
violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent,
game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those
players who are in virtually defenseless postures (e.g., a player in the act of or just after
throwing a pass, a receiver catching or attempting to catch a pass, a runner already in the
grasp of a tackler, a kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air, or a player
on the ground at the end of a play). All players in virtually defenseless postures are protected
by the same prohibitions against use of the helmet and facemask that are described
in the roughing-the-passer rules (see Article 11, subsection 3 below of this
Rule 12, Section 2);

Ok, let's pretend this game was played in 2006, since those are the rules you are referring to. The rule you cited pertains to unnecessary roughness on a defenseless player. That means it relies on the official's judgement. I'm thinking the judged the hit was not unnecessary and that the runner was not defenseless. Next.

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by daggo66

Ok, let's pretend this game was played in 2006, since those are the rules you are referring to. The rule you cited pertains to unnecessary roughness on a defenseless player. That means it relies on the official's judgement. I'm thinking the judged the hit was not unnecessary and that the runner was not defenseless. Next.

daggo, you obviously skipped over the first part of this rule:
"although such violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent" and chose to focus on the defenseless part. If you have a link to more current rules, please post them, and while you're at it, reference even in the most general terms where in your rules leading with your helmet while tackling is allowed.

[Robert Goodman]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

( g) using any part of a player’s helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/“hairline” parts)
or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily; although such
violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent,
game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those
players who are in virtually defenseless postures (e.g., a player in the act of or just after
throwing a pass, a receiver catching or attempting to catch a pass, a runner already in the
grasp of a tackler, a kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air, or a player
on the ground at the end of a play). All players in virtually defenseless postures are protected
by the same prohibitions against use of the helmet and facemask that are described
in the roughing-the-passer rules (see Article 11, subsection 3 below of this
Rule 12, Section 2);

The irony is that the parts of the body contacted by an opponent's helmet in a manner like this are rarely injured seriously thereby. Injuries delivered by head hits are more commonly of the fluke kind, like head-on-knee. It's the player delivering the hit via the head who is in the far greater danger, because of what that can do to that player's own neck.

Robert

[Sonofanump]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Football officials are clueless.

Edit: For the record, I'm not a fan of either of these teams. I just think NFL officiating is probably the worst of any major sport.

This made it easy to judge you. NFL officials are the closest to perfection that exist in the officiating world. I could see if someone would say this about NBA officials due to the nature of the sport.

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by Sonofanump

This made it easy to judge you. NFL officials are the closest to perfection that exist in the officiating world. I could see if someone would say this about NBA officials due to the nature of the sport.

How is it these perfect officials continue to screw up. I actually wanted to see the Steelers lose if given a choice, with that said, how did the replay officials come up with the reversal of Holmes catch on the goal line in the first half?? If it were ruled incomplete on the field, the replay showed he clearly caught it. The only question was, whether or not he got into the enzone with it(debatable). Calls like this happen in every game, week in, week out. In the earlier game yesterday, they blew several calls. Roughing the punter comes to mind for one, when the replay showed the punter actually makes the contact by collapsing on top of the defender as if he were shot in the head. Please dont try and defend the officiating in this league. It's borderline criminal. Maybe you should look into the difference in revenue the league generates when small vs. large market teams are in the superbowl. Money corrupts. If you dont believe that then your head it buried deep in the sand.

[RMR]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

How is it these perfect officials continue to screw up. I actually wanted to see the Steelers lose if given a choice, with that said, how did the replay officials come up with the reversal of Holmes catch on the goal line in the first half?? If it were ruled incomplete on the field, the replay showed he clearly caught it. The only question was, whether or not he got into the enzone with it(debatable). Calls like this happen in every game, week in, week out. In the earlier game yesterday, they blew several calls. Roughing the punter comes to mind for one, when the replay showed the punter actually makes the contact by collapsing on top of the defender as if he were shot in the head. Please dont try and defend the officiating in this league. It's borderline criminal. Maybe you should look into the difference in revenue the league generates when small vs. large market teams are in the superbowl. Money corrupts. If you dont believe that then your head it buried deep in the sand.

You need to make up your mind - are they incompetent or are they cheating to favor certain teams? And who are these "replay officials" that you make reference to?

You have zero credibility. Sorry.

[BigGref]

I'll chime in here.

I say this call is a simple coin toss, my first reaction, from behind (BJ) angle, looked like his legs cleared to the Right right at the hit (which would suggest that his body was turned to the side at contact), the view from the side was blocked by McGhee's ducking of his head, now if there was 50 officials on the field hovering with HD camera's and looking at super slow motion on every play they may have seen contact that was very close, I would lean toward helmet to helmet (since that has been a POE in our state/NFHS/ and my HS crew). So I would have probably thrown the flag from the FJ or LJ position (if I had a clear view of the player getting tackled's head).

But the fact that after 6 pages of discussion we are still divided just shows that it was a simple tossup. if the flag was thrown and things worked out differently, (like someone suggested) we would probably have the same response. We can all learn something from this discussion, we hopefully will further define in our own minds our standards for HTH contact and will be on the lookout (in 8 months or so, except for a lucky dozen or so) I digress

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Edit: For the record, I'm not a fan of either of these teams. I just think NFL officiating is probably the worst of any major sport because I don't know the rules.

There...fixed it for ya!