Ravens/Steelers game

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by daggo66

It matters because of something called the "RULES". Officials can only flag things that are against the RULES, not just because something went bad for your team.

13. A tackler using his helmet to butt, spear, or ram an opponent.

14. Any player who uses the top of his helmet unnecessarily.

These are two rules infractions resulting in a 15 yard penatly. The replay clearly shows Clark leads with the crown of his helmet, not his shoulder as some here would like to believe, striking MaGahee between the front and side of his helmet. Those two rules apply to defensive players for those of you wondering why runningbacks/recievers can lead with their helmet and defenders can't.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

13. A tackler using his helmet to butt, spear, or ram an opponent.

14. Any player who uses the top of his helmet unnecessarily.

These are two rules infractions resulting in a 15 yard penatly. The replay clearly shows Clark leads with the crown of his helmet, not his shoulder as some here would like to believe, striking MaGahee between the front and side of his helmet. Those two rules apply to defensive players for those of you wondering why runningbacks/recievers can lead with their helmet and defenders can't.

Two posts and you know of JR's objectivity? LOL.

Directly to your point, read the rule you quoted above and explain how the phrase "any player" applies only to defenders.

Specifically about the play in question - the tackler lead with his shoulder. The fact that there was helmet to helmet contact does not necessarily mean there was a foul. Not all helmet contact is unavoidable. Which, by the way, is why players wear helmets.

[waltjp]

Aren't there fan sites where you guys can go and blame someone for your loss?

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Two posts and you know of JR's objectivity? LOL.

Directly to your point, read the rule you quoted above and explain how the phrase "any player" applies only to defenders.

Specifically about the play in question - the tackler lead with his shoulder. The fact that there was helmet to helmet contact does not necessarily mean there was a foul. Not all helmet contact is unavoidable. Which, by the way, is why players wear helmets.

because this specific rules applies to tackling maybe??? last time i checked, the defense was responsible for that. As I posted earlier, watch the replay then come back and tell me the defender does not lead with the crown of his helmet and makes contact with his helmet before his shoulder. FYI, the objectivity comment relates to all the Raven/Steeler fans here, not just JR's.

Originally Posted by pmarz1

because this specific rules applies to tackling maybe??? last time i checked, the defense was responsible for that. As I posted earlier, watch the replay then come back and tell me the defender does not lead with the crown of his helmet and makes contact with his helmet before his shoulder. FYI, the objectivity comment relates to all the Raven/Steeler fans here, not just JR's.

Hmmmm...so what do you call it when the kickoff or punt coverage team brings down the ball carrier? What do you call it when the offense has to stop the thief who intercepted the QB's errant throw?

[wwcfoa43]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

Hmmmm...so what do you call it when the kickoff or punt coverage team brings down the ball carrier? What do you call it when the offense has to stop the thief who intercepted the QB's errant throw?

Since you are trying to split hairs, in NFL rules the teams in possession is the offense and their opponents are the defense so in your two examples it is the defense who is bringing down the ball carrier and stopping the thief.

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

Hmmmm...so what do you call it when the kickoff or punt coverage team brings down the ball carrier? What do you call it when the offense has to stop the thief who intercepted the QB's errant throw?

ummm, are kickoff or punt coverage teams considered to be playing offense or defense? Once a ball is intercepted, is the team that was just intercepted still playing offense???? Is this concept beyond your mental capabilities??? Comments from refs like yourself kind of prove my point that the game is well beyond your mental abilities and it is time for leagues to allow a bit more technology into the games to assist the poor state of officiating.

[BktBallRef]

Oh joy! It's idiot fanboy time!

Anybody wanna bets these two idiots are the same person?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

...Comments from refs like yourself kind of prove my point that the game is well beyond your mental abilities and it is time for leagues to allow a bit more technology into the games to assist the poor state of officiating.

Why don't you step up and improve officiating? What are your contribuitions to the profession?

BTW, can we see some film of you at work? We would love to critique your abilities.

And Clark did lead with his shoulder. He turned his body so his right shoulder was leading. Unfortunately he is not a turtle and he can't retract his head back into his shoulder pads. I'm an Eagles fan, leading with the helmet is what Brian Dawkins does so I definitely know what it looks like when a player actually does do it.

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

ummm, are kickoff or punt coverage teams considered to be playing offense or defense? Once a ball is intercepted, is the team that was just intercepted still playing offense???? Is this concept beyond your mental capabilities??? Comments from refs like yourself kind of prove my point that the game is well beyond your mental abilities and it is time for leagues to allow a bit more technology into the games to assist the poor state of officiating.

When discussing rules, the team on offense is team A and the team on defense is team B. Those designations do not change throughout the down regardless of a change of possession. The same applies to special teams, kickers are team K and receivers are team R.

[wwcfoa43]

Originally Posted by daggo66

When discussing rules, the team on offense is team A and the team on defense is team B. Those designations do not change throughout the down regardless of a change of possession. The same applies to special teams, kickers are team K and receivers are team R.

While the designations of Team A, B, K and R stay the same, the terms "defense" and "offense" as defined in the NFL rule book CAN change throughout the down as possession changes from one team to another.

This is important for some rules use the terms "defensive player" for example (such as tripping by defense) and they apply to the opponents of the team that is in possession of the ball.

So IF there is a rule that only applies to defenders then it would depend who has the ball.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

because this specific rules applies to tackling maybe??? last time i checked, the defense was responsible for that. As I posted earlier, watch the replay then come back and tell me the defender does not lead with the crown of his helmet and makes contact with his helmet before his shoulder. FYI, the objectivity comment relates to all the Raven/Steeler fans here, not just JR's.

Therein lies the problem, you don't understand the rules or their interpretations.

If you watch objectively you'll see the tackler lead with his shoulder. The reason the runner got hit in the head is because he put his head there.

Football is a sport filled with violent contact. Not all of that contact is illegal.

btw - I don't know if JR is or isn't a fan of either team and nothing stated in his post gives reason to believe he isn't being objective.

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Therein lies the problem, you don't understand the rules or their interpretations.

If you watch objectively you'll see the tackler lead with his shoulder. The reason the runner got hit in the head is because he put his head there.

Football is a sport filled with violent contact. Not all of that contact is illegal.

btw - I don't know if JR is or isn't a fan of either team and nothing stated in his post gives reason to believe he isn't being objective.

Simple question for both of you. Watch this cliphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ssVchGUm0)
particularly the part starting at the 50 second point, and tell me how what you just watched was not leading with his helmet. Let's take your spin on it. If MaGahee hadnt "put his head in there", where would Clark's helmet have landed? Oh, that's right, it wasnt his helmet, it was his shoulder, I forgot.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Simple question for both of you. Watch this cliphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ssVchGUm0)
particularly the part starting at the 50 second point, and tell me how what you just watched was not leading with his helmet. Let's take your spin on it. If MaGahee hadnt "put his head in there", where would Clark's helmet have landed? Oh, that's right, it wasnt his helmet, it was his shoulder, I forgot.

I can't watch Youtube videos from my work computer (probably a good thing). The disadvantage you have (and just don't realize) is the hours and hours of film study the NFL guys have. Even those of us who work HS and small college have likely seen some film study on the difference between leading with your head and leading with your shoulder.

If I recall correctly from watching the reply several times last night, the defender was attempting to deliver the blow with his shoulder and not his head. Leading with the head does look different. That's why you and a trained official can look at the exact same video and see it totally differently. The amount of training and video study ONE of the NFL officials involved in this play has seen possibly exceeds the total of everyone on this board combined.

It's still possible to get this type of play wrong and as you can see there are officials on here who have different opinions on this play. None of them accuse the officials of being incompetent though. This was a tough call that can be debated on slow motion replay either way. That doesn't make the official right or wrong as he has to go with his trained judgement. I bet Pereira probably supports the call either way on this one as well unless there is some specific directive or training on this type of hit that I wouldn't be privvy to. You are entitled to our opinion as well but to state the officials are horrible and totally missed this one is just wrong and only makes you look bad.

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Simple question for both of you. Watch this cliphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ssVchGUm0)
particularly the part starting at the 50 second point, and tell me how what you just watched was not leading with his helmet. Let's take your spin on it. If MaGahee hadnt "put his head in there", where would Clark's helmet have landed? Oh, that's right, it wasnt his helmet, it was his shoulder, I forgot.

The video CLEARLY shows the initial contact was with the shoulder and the 2 helmets meeting a split second later. Initial contact is what is ruled on.

Let me give you an example. Under high school rules it is illegal to block below the waist outside of the free blocking zone. However if the defender puts his hands down to ward off the low block, the initial contact was with the hands and therefore it is not a penalty for blocjing below the waist.

Again you need to remember that the officials are limited in what they can call by the actual rules. And by actual rules I mean the actual current rules. They change every year.