Ravens/Steelers game

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by daggo66

References please?

Dagg,

This is the site I initially found when tracking down the rules. http://football.calsci.com/TheRules3.html

I've since found a site that actually has the official NFL rulebook(2006)
http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/...20RULEBOOK.pdf

Specifically, Rule 8 item g. page 82, that specific rules reads:

Impermissible
Use of
Helmet and
Facemask

( g) using any part of a player’s helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/“hairline” parts)
or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily; although such
violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent,
game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those
players who are in virtually defenseless postures (e.g., a player in the act of or just after
throwing a pass, a receiver catching or attempting to catch a pass, a runner already in the
grasp of a tackler, a kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air, or a player
on the ground at the end of a play). All players in virtually defenseless postures are protected
by the same prohibitions against use of the helmet and facemask that are described
in the roughing-the-passer rules (see Article 11, subsection 3 below of this
Rule 12, Section 2);

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

13. A tackler using his helmet to butt, spear, or ram an opponent.

14. Any player who uses the top of his helmet unnecessarily.

These are two rules infractions resulting in a 15 yard penatly. The replay clearly shows Clark leads with the crown of his helmet, not his shoulder as some here would like to believe, striking MaGahee between the front and side of his helmet. Those two rules apply to defensive players for those of you wondering why runningbacks/recievers can lead with their helmet and defenders can't.

Originally Posted by daggo66

References please?

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Dagg,

This is the site I initially found when tracking down the rules. http://football.calsci.com/TheRules3.html

I've since found a site that actually has the official NFL rulebook(2006)
http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/...20RULEBOOK.pdf

Specifically, Rule 8 item g. page 82, that specific rules reads:

Impermissible
Use of
Helmet and
Facemask

( g) using any part of a player’s helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/“hairline” parts)
or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily; although such
violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent,
game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those
players who are in virtually defenseless postures (e.g., a player in the act of or just after
throwing a pass, a receiver catching or attempting to catch a pass, a runner already in the
grasp of a tackler, a kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air, or a player
on the ground at the end of a play). All players in virtually defenseless postures are protected
by the same prohibitions against use of the helmet and facemask that are described
in the roughing-the-passer rules (see Article 11, subsection 3 below of this
Rule 12, Section 2);

Great, you found a rule but it still doesn't back your assertion the the offense can not be guilty of leading with the helmet.

Can you share with is what clinics you've attended where these rules have been discussed and interpreted? (Joe Buck, Troy Aikman, Phil Simms, John Madden and the like are not credible sources.)

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Dagg,

This is the site I initially found when tracking down the rules. http://football.calsci.com/TheRules3.html

I've since found a site that actually has the official NFL rulebook(2006)
http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/...20RULEBOOK.pdf

Specifically, Rule 8 item g. page 82, that specific rules reads:

Impermissible
Use of
Helmet and
Facemask

( g) using any part of a player’s helmet (including the top/crown and forehead/“hairline” parts)
or facemask to butt, spear, or ram an opponent violently or unnecessarily; although such
violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent,
game officials will give special attention in administering this rule to protecting those
players who are in virtually defenseless postures (e.g., a player in the act of or just after
throwing a pass, a receiver catching or attempting to catch a pass, a runner already in the
grasp of a tackler, a kickoff or punt returner attempting to field a kick in the air, or a player
on the ground at the end of a play). All players in virtually defenseless postures are protected
by the same prohibitions against use of the helmet and facemask that are described
in the roughing-the-passer rules (see Article 11, subsection 3 below of this
Rule 12, Section 2);

Ok, let's pretend this game was played in 2006, since those are the rules you are referring to. The rule you cited pertains to unnecessary roughness on a defenseless player. That means it relies on the official's judgement. I'm thinking the judged the hit was not unnecessary and that the runner was not defenseless. Next.

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by daggo66

Ok, let's pretend this game was played in 2006, since those are the rules you are referring to. The rule you cited pertains to unnecessary roughness on a defenseless player. That means it relies on the official's judgement. I'm thinking the judged the hit was not unnecessary and that the runner was not defenseless. Next.

daggo, you obviously skipped over the first part of this rule:
"although such violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent" and chose to focus on the defenseless part. If you have a link to more current rules, please post them, and while you're at it, reference even in the most general terms where in your rules leading with your helmet while tackling is allowed.

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

daggo, you obviously skipped over the first part of this rule:
"although such violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent" and chose to focus on the defenseless part. If you have a link to more current rules, please post them, and while you're at it, reference even in the most general terms where in your rules leading with your helmet while tackling is allowed.

I didn't skip anything. You must apply the rule in it's entirety and you must apply the correct rule. The one you choose deals with unnecessary roughness. You can't pick and choose parts of it. Leading with the helmet is never allowed. Again, as myself and others have stated, initial contact is the key.

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by daggo66

I didn't skip anything. You must apply the rule in it's entirety and you must apply the correct rule. The one you choose deals with unnecessary roughness. You can't pick and choose parts of it. Leading with the helmet is never allowed. Again, as myself and others have stated, initial contact is the key.

daggo, you seem to be breaking your own rules now. You wrote:"The rule you cited pertains to unnecessary roughness on a defenseless player." Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt this rule apply to all players, not just defenseless ones? It goes on to state the officials may place special attention to defenseless players, etc....true?

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

daggo, you seem to be breaking your own rules now. You wrote:"The rule you cited pertains to unnecessary roughness on a defenseless player." Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt this rule apply to all players, not just defenseless ones? It goes on to state the officials may place special attention to defenseless players, etc....true?

The initial contact was with the shoulder, period, end of story, sorry your team lost.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

daggo, you seem to be breaking your own rules now. You wrote:"The rule you cited pertains to unnecessary roughness on a defenseless player." Correct me if I'm wrong but doesnt this rule apply to all players, not just defenseless ones? It goes on to state the officials may place special attention to defenseless players, etc....true?

If I may speak for daggo66 (I think he will allow me to do that). I think what he was trying to say is the entirety of what you quoted was the section of the rules that pertain to a defenseless player. Your quote had a header titled "Impermissible Use of Helmet and Facemask". The specific item you listed was sub-section (g). I've never seen the NFL rule book but I assume that means there are also sub-sections (a) through (f) and possibly additional sub-sections starting with (h) that you did not include. I also know that the NFL does have rules regarding "defenseless players" that we don't specifically have at the HS level. Based on what you quoted, I believe this sub-section is there to deal with the defenseless player situation which is what daggo66 was trying to point out.

It usually takes an official a couple years to combine the wording of the rules with the philosophy and application of the rules in game action. I don't exect you as a fan to be able to do this at all since you don't have that experience or training. But I would at least think you could listen to the comments on this board and think to yourself, "Oh, there's probably a lot more to this than I realize and the NFL officials probably do know a lot more than I give them credit. Maybe I should change my approach to be more open to the comments the officials on this site provide because there is some experience behind that comment."

I'm not trying to dissuade you from asking questions, looking for clarification, or stating your opinion on a judgement. I'm just hoping to provide you with an opportunity to see the officials on this site (and the NFL) generally know what they are talking about. I hope you take that in a positive light.

[mbyron]

According to a statement that the Ravens issued at around 2:30 p.m. Monday, McGahee has been released from the hospital, is resting at home, and is expected to recover fully from his injuries (unspecified).

http://masnsports.com/2009/01/update-on-mcgahee.html

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

If I may speak for daggo66 (I think he will allow me to do that). I think what he was trying to say is the entirety of what you quoted was the section of the rules that pertain to a defenseless player. Your quote had a header titled "Impermissible Use of Helmet and Facemask". The specific item you listed was sub-section (g). I've never seen the NFL rule book but I assume that means there are also sub-sections (a) through (f) and possibly additional sub-sections starting with (h) that you did not include. I also know that the NFL does have rules regarding "defenseless players" that we don't specifically have at the HS level. Based on what you quoted, I believe this sub-section is there to deal with the defenseless player situation which is what daggo66 was trying to point out.

It usually takes an official a couple years to combine the wording of the rules with the philosophy and application of the rules in game action. I don't exect you as a fan to be able to do this at all since you don't have that experience or training. But I would at least think you could listen to the comments on this board and think to yourself, "Oh, there's probably a lot more to this than I realize and the NFL officials probably do know a lot more than I give them credit. Maybe I should change my approach to be more open to the comments the officials on this site provide because there is some experience behind that comment."

I'm not trying to dissuade you from asking questions, looking for clarification, or stating your opinion on a judgement. I'm just hoping to provide you with an opportunity to see the officials on this site (and the NFL) generally know what they are talking about. I hope you take that in a positive light.

Thank you, my patience was wearing thin.

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by bisonlj

If I may speak for daggo66 (I think he will allow me to do that). I think what he was trying to say is the entirety of what you quoted was the section of the rules that pertain to a defenseless player. Your quote had a header titled "Impermissible Use of Helmet and Facemask". The specific item you listed was sub-section (g). I've never seen the NFL rule book but I assume that means there are also sub-sections (a) through (f) and possibly additional sub-sections starting with (h) that you did not include. I also know that the NFL does have rules regarding "defenseless players" that we don't specifically have at the HS level. Based on what you quoted, I believe this sub-section is there to deal with the defenseless player situation which is what daggo66 was trying to point out.

It usually takes an official a couple years to combine the wording of the rules with the philosophy and application of the rules in game action. I don't exect you as a fan to be able to do this at all since you don't have that experience or training. But I would at least think you could listen to the comments on this board and think to yourself, "Oh, there's probably a lot more to this than I realize and the NFL officials probably do know a lot more than I give them credit. Maybe I should change my approach to be more open to the comments the officials on this site provide because there is some experience behind that comment."

I'm not trying to dissuade you from asking questions, looking for clarification, or stating your opinion on a judgement. I'm just hoping to provide you with an opportunity to see the officials on this site (and the NFL) generally know what they are talking about. I hope you take that in a positive light.

First of all, I think in my earlier post to daggo, I referenced the link with the entire rulebook. You are correct about the other subsections, etc. but that particular section dealing with unnecessary roughness(Section 8) subsection g. had the subtitle of "Impermissible Use of Helmet and Facemask". This subsection seems to deal with all players as it initially states, then goes on to state how officials may pay particular attention to defenseless players. Regarding the remainder of your post, if you read my initial post, I was called into question as to the existance of such a rule. Many who post here got very defensive with their comments,some feeling I was a Ravens fan/sore loser. I have no connection with them or the Steelers. If you all are truely impartial, then answer the questions that way. You are one of the few that responded as one would hope an official would. I understand we as fans have the opportunity to see so much more after the fact, things that when witnessed in real time may be hard to detect. Unfortunately, the league doesnt allow the officials to consult a replay to determine whether or not a penalty is in order, and in this case, a change of possession, which most likely had no effect on the outcome.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

daggo, you obviously skipped over the first part of this rule:
"although such violent or unnecessary use of the helmet and facemask is impermissible against any opponent" and chose to focus on the defenseless part. If you have a link to more current rules, please post them, and while you're at it, reference even in the most general terms where in your rules leading with your helmet while tackling is allowed.

Beautiful when non-officials tell the officials what the rules mean.

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Beautiful when non-officials tell the officials what the rules mean.

this is why officials and officiating in general gets criticized as it does. Officials like yourself think you are the only people on the planet with reading comprehension skills. Still waiting for anyone to post something that resembles a fact that leading with your helmet, regardless of whether the player recieving the hit is defenseless or not, does not constitute an infraction.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

this is why officials and officiating in general gets criticized as it does. Officials like yourself think you are the only people on the planet with reading comprehension skills. Still waiting for anyone to post something that resembles a fact that leading with your helmet, regardless of whether the player recieving the hit is defenseless or not, does not constitute an infraction.

I never questioned your reading skills. Listening skills are a whole other matter, but that's not the issue. The problem you have is understanding that there's a lot more to officiating a sport than reading the rule book. It takes many years to understand the meaning of the rules and how they're applied in game situations. It takes years of training and film work to understand the mechanics of the game to know where you're supposed to be and what you're supposed to be looking at.


The first thing I was told after passing my certification test was, "Now that you know the rules we'll take you out on the field and teach you how to be an official."

There are some officials who can recite the rule book, chapter and verse. Some of them are the absolute worst officials you'll ever see on a field. There's a whole lot more to officiating the game than knowing what the rules say.

[PSU213]

Here is what I don't comprehend about this 'discussion'...

Someone comes on this website (a website for officials to discuss issues, not for fans to complain about the outcome of a game), and they ask a question about a particular call in the game. There are given a fair, unbiased response. It is not the answer they want, so they call us clueless, rip the NFL officials, and refused to listen to anything constrctive any of us have to say.

The truth is: (1) no matter how much they complain about a call or we discuss it, criticize it (if necessary), etc.--the call does not change. I know it is hard to believe, but what we say on here on Monday, will not affect a call made Sunday evening. (2) We have no control over NFL officiating. NFL officials make some bad calls and a lot more good ones. Even if the officials on the field were to make bad calls on 50% of the plays, that does not give us (or any of the fans) control over the NFL when they make decisions about their officials. It might make fans feel better to argue with officials on this board, but it does not have any influence on this board. (3) Fans who want to keep up a silly argument about a play at the end of the game yesterday (and, yes, as a safety issue it is a valid debate--on a fan site) can go somewhere else to do it.