Ravens/Steelers game

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

because this specific rules applies to tackling maybe??? last time i checked, the defense was responsible for that. As I posted earlier, watch the replay then come back and tell me the defender does not lead with the crown of his helmet and makes contact with his helmet before his shoulder. FYI, the objectivity comment relates to all the Raven/Steeler fans here, not just JR's.

Therein lies the problem, you don't understand the rules or their interpretations.

If you watch objectively you'll see the tackler lead with his shoulder. The reason the runner got hit in the head is because he put his head there.

Football is a sport filled with violent contact. Not all of that contact is illegal.

btw - I don't know if JR is or isn't a fan of either team and nothing stated in his post gives reason to believe he isn't being objective.

[pmarz1]

Originally Posted by waltjp

Therein lies the problem, you don't understand the rules or their interpretations.

If you watch objectively you'll see the tackler lead with his shoulder. The reason the runner got hit in the head is because he put his head there.

Football is a sport filled with violent contact. Not all of that contact is illegal.

btw - I don't know if JR is or isn't a fan of either team and nothing stated in his post gives reason to believe he isn't being objective.

Simple question for both of you. Watch this cliphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ssVchGUm0)
particularly the part starting at the 50 second point, and tell me how what you just watched was not leading with his helmet. Let's take your spin on it. If MaGahee hadnt "put his head in there", where would Clark's helmet have landed? Oh, that's right, it wasnt his helmet, it was his shoulder, I forgot.

[bisonlj]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Simple question for both of you. Watch this cliphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ssVchGUm0)
particularly the part starting at the 50 second point, and tell me how what you just watched was not leading with his helmet. Let's take your spin on it. If MaGahee hadnt "put his head in there", where would Clark's helmet have landed? Oh, that's right, it wasnt his helmet, it was his shoulder, I forgot.

I can't watch Youtube videos from my work computer (probably a good thing). The disadvantage you have (and just don't realize) is the hours and hours of film study the NFL guys have. Even those of us who work HS and small college have likely seen some film study on the difference between leading with your head and leading with your shoulder.

If I recall correctly from watching the reply several times last night, the defender was attempting to deliver the blow with his shoulder and not his head. Leading with the head does look different. That's why you and a trained official can look at the exact same video and see it totally differently. The amount of training and video study ONE of the NFL officials involved in this play has seen possibly exceeds the total of everyone on this board combined.

It's still possible to get this type of play wrong and as you can see there are officials on here who have different opinions on this play. None of them accuse the officials of being incompetent though. This was a tough call that can be debated on slow motion replay either way. That doesn't make the official right or wrong as he has to go with his trained judgement. I bet Pereira probably supports the call either way on this one as well unless there is some specific directive or training on this type of hit that I wouldn't be privvy to. You are entitled to our opinion as well but to state the officials are horrible and totally missed this one is just wrong and only makes you look bad.

[daggo66]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Simple question for both of you. Watch this cliphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ssVchGUm0)
particularly the part starting at the 50 second point, and tell me how what you just watched was not leading with his helmet. Let's take your spin on it. If MaGahee hadnt "put his head in there", where would Clark's helmet have landed? Oh, that's right, it wasnt his helmet, it was his shoulder, I forgot.

The video CLEARLY shows the initial contact was with the shoulder and the 2 helmets meeting a split second later. Initial contact is what is ruled on.

Let me give you an example. Under high school rules it is illegal to block below the waist outside of the free blocking zone. However if the defender puts his hands down to ward off the low block, the initial contact was with the hands and therefore it is not a penalty for blocjing below the waist.

Again you need to remember that the officials are limited in what they can call by the actual rules. And by actual rules I mean the actual current rules. They change every year.

[waltjp]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Simple question for both of you. Watch this cliphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ssVchGUm0)
particularly the part starting at the 50 second point, and tell me how what you just watched was not leading with his helmet. Let's take your spin on it. If MaGahee hadnt "put his head in there", where would Clark's helmet have landed? Oh, that's right, it wasnt his helmet, it was his shoulder, I forgot.

Please realize that when a tacklers leads with his shoulder the head is usually in close proximity. Like Bison said, this definitely was not 'leading with the head'.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by pmarz1

Simple question for both of you. Watch this cliphttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1ssVchGUm0)
particularly the part starting at the 50 second point, and tell me how what you just watched was not leading with his helmet. Let's take your spin on it. If MaGahee hadnt "put his head in there", where would Clark's helmet have landed? Oh, that's right, it wasnt his helmet, it was his shoulder, I forgot.

Actually, if you stop the video at 0:53 you will see that the initial contact is shoulder to shoulder. Also you can see the helmet contact does not involve the crown of either player. The receiver takes a hit to the face mask mostly because he "dropped" to protect himself and the defender's point of contact is in the side (just about directly on the team logo). That's probably why you saw both players down. The receiver due to the whiplash effect of the hit (see his head snap back?) and the defender becase a shot like that to the side of the head can knock you out just as easily. So, you don't have a defenseless player (who braced for the hit), you don't have a hit with the crown, and you don't have initial helmet to helmet contact. Why should there be a flag?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by ajmc

Actually, the announcers did an excellent job of explaining why a "no call" was the correct call, and they used the replays to support their observation and analysis.

I agree.

Originally Posted by daggo66

The initial contact was with the shoulder, period, end of story, sorry your team lost.

Originally Posted by Mike L

Actually, if you stop the video at 0:53 you will see that the initial contact is shoulder to shoulder. Also you can see the helmet contact does not involve the crown of either player. The receiver takes a hit to the face mask mostly because he "dropped" to protect himself and the defender's point of contact is in the side (just about directly on the team logo). That's probably why you saw both players down. The receiver due to the whiplash effect of the hit (see his head snap back?) and the defender becase a shot like that to the side of the head can knock you out just as easily. So, you don't have a defenseless player (who braced for the hit), you don't have a hit with the crown, and you don't have initial helmet to helmet contact. Why should there be a flag?

Incorrect. Watch the video is slower motion. . . the head of the ball carrier jerks back ever so slightly before his shoulder does. The only way that this happens is when the initial contact was made helmet to helmet.

[Mike L]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

I agree.





Incorrect. Watch the video is slower motion. . . the head of the ball carrier jerks back ever so slightly before his shoulder does. The only way that this happens is when the initial contact was made helmet to helmet.

I guess we're seeing the same thing differently because I see shoulder contact first.